pope

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: I love to clip bolts, but the routes there seemed to me to be in poor style, bolts were placed right next to cracks, which were big enought for a #1 camalot. And not just on one route. Why would someone put bolts in like that after all that has been said on it? I think it needs to be looked at. Careful there, my friend. You're asking for a serious cyberspace ass-kicking. Somebody (cocky little fucker who works in a gym) will tell you that you're just dragging your feet, standing in the way of the ordained direction in which mountain sport is evolving, and all because you're a bitter, old "homo-has-been-us" who can't crank modern standards. You'll be reminded of greater environmental evils (Exxon oil slicks and such) which (apparently) justfiy the occasional bolt next to a #1 Camalot placment. You'll be called a "rock cop" and a "prick", as well as a number of other names that Lambone thinks are four-letter words. Save yourself the grief. Just go up quietly one afternoon and pull them out.

quote: Originally posted by kmurray: The thought that one can do everything perfectly, take a fall, and have the equipment, used correctly, in perfect shape, and properly placed, FAIL MULTIPLE TIMES, resulting in death, is disturbing in the extreme. I've never had such thoughts, and I would guess that I never will, regardless of the outcome of this "investigation". I've seen the belay chain work well so many times that I have an enormous amount of faith in it, provided I'm climbing with somebody who understands its limitations. If an investigation into this accident concludes that Goran had done everything "perfectly", then I will still view his passing as a tragedy that defies statistics, and I will not question the engineering of the equipment I use nor my own capability to properly secure my mountain travels therewith. The assumption that a beginning rock leader (high-altitude experience not withstanding) would have been properly placing gear contradicts experiences I've had in instructing novice rock athletes. My experience is that novice climbers have difficulty evaluating the quality of gear placements while standing on the ground in a seminar. When they actually have to place the gear while dealing with exposure and fatigue, perhaps from a stance where they really can't see the placement.....let's just say this is a difficult task. In retrospect, with the protection placed by Goran now removed from this climb, it will be difficult to analyze the judgements he made in placing it. Good luck with your investigation, and I do solemnly hope that those involved achieve some kind of closure.

quote: Originally posted by gapertimmy: the possibly most simple equation that will solve all problems you encounter is simply 8=D Huh? Would you like to 'xplain that to those of us who are NOT on crack?

What happened to that "sward-swallowing" Blight character? I did some research and I think his photo appeared in Nelson's book. Can anybody confirm my hunch?

quote: Originally posted by vegetablebelay: Hey, just become a Coug fan and you'll forget all about the other local losing teams. First of all, the Cougs ain't local. Ain't that "college" (and I use that word in its most liberal interpretation) over in Idaho or some damn place? Second of all, most Coug fans I know ain't really local either. Most of them live out on the fringe of the metropolitan area, drink shitty beer and still wear mullets. Prediction: My dawgs will spoil the Cougs' little top-5 dream (Christ they got some lucky bounces this weekend) in the Apple Cup.

Two ideas: 1. Lower the freezing temperature by adding a little salt. 2. Climb in a gym where you don't have to encounter such difficulties.

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Chips: No, I am serious. there are some nice lines to hammer down there without having to worry about ethics-mongers charging away at you. It doesn't bother me when you call me an asshole for calling you an asshole! When you learn to police your own impulses, the worries you've just described will vanish.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: There are 2000+ routes within 30 minutes travel of Squamish and only about 50 of them are at the Lower Malemute. Personally, I'm not going down there. I've climbed Clean Crack so many times that my first knuckles are shaped like #3 Wild Country nuts. Furthermore, I don't view trespassing as civil disobedience....just disobedience. On the other hand, the routes are superb, and if I were in Fence Rider's shoes, after waiting a couple of years to see the results of access efforts, I'd jump on it. Drooo, follow your own logic. If Fence Sitter "ruins access" by his acts, there are still 2500+ routes within 30 minutes, and with these options, nobody should miss Caboose any more than Fence Poster is right now. Duh. Finally, access can't be denied, it can only be verboten. Without razor wire, dogs and armed guards, anybody who is willing to accept the consequences can climb there .

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: quote:Originally posted by Fence Sitter: thank you pope for being the only voice that I agree with ....i will gladly go and ruin the access for others. i must climb those routes even though there are hundreds of others to choose from Even in the worst case...say old Fence Builder gets hit by a train and the Malamute is closed forever...this would not constitute the "ruin of access", only the elimination of POTENTIAL ACCESS. You can't ruin access that doesn't exist.

quote: Originally posted by wayne1112: Who is the guy in this pict that you are ovbiously obsessed with?? Glad you asked. That's Tom Stoppard...aka Schlangeschmecker....aka Blight!

If these climbs remain closed for several years.....well, let's just say that they shouldn't be missed in your lifetime. You're a responsible person who isn't going to belay off the tracks or get hit by a train, and if it appears that the routes won't be open in the next few years, I'd say go for it. Of course, you should wait a year or two and see what happens, jsut in case progess IS being made, progess that might be hindered by your action. The policy..although it may be legally sound...is absolute bullshit. Such choice crack climbing should be public domain, regardless of who owns it. I can understand the closure of Hot Cherry Bendover as it is in somebody's back yard, but the Malamute is entirely different. People have climbed there without disturbing anybody for decades.

quote: Originally posted by texplorer: Did you forget about soloing? As far as leave no trace its even better than those unsightly TR anchors everywhere. You think I'm joking but then again maybe I'm just a young punk with not much to lose. Maybe your an old man who just can't get it up anymore You really don't know what you've got to lose since your future...the future you stand to sacrifice every time you solo...cannot be presently known. In fact, I once loved soloing...I probably climbed more without a rope than with, back in the late 80's. I had a couple of close calls and then I got wise, but my brushes with death were such that I feel lucky to be here. I climb recreationally; I have a family and a job I really like. Whatever satisfaction I got from soloing was not so great that it would have been worth missing all of this. Also, solo climbing can leave quite a mess....if you splat!

Nice, Peter! And take it from a guy who climbs as "purely" with a rope as he does without one. It is a fact that some climbs are easier to clip up than to top-rope. Take Model Worker for example. If you do the big traverse move dynamically (as many people do), you'll notice that with the bolt clipped behind you it is easier to catch the ledge, as rope drag controls your barn door. I've never come off that move on the lead, but I've missed it a couple of times on TR. My point: TR is not only a purer form of climbing, it is infinitely better for aesthetics at the crag (since it leaves no trace). In some cases it is more difficult than clipping bolts, but in every case it is closer to a sport climber's aspiration (pure movement unencumbered by 'quipment) than sport climbing itself! The absurd examples offered by GregW et al. might be amusing, but I think Johnny B. is promoting top-roping on short crag climbs instead of littering them with bolts. Bachar is king. [ 10-30-2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: pope ]

quote: Originally posted by jon: Trying to decide between these two cameras. Anyone used these? Yes, I saw both on sale in the same ad. and I'm also interested. Anybody?

quote: Originally posted by COL. Von Spanker: Here is the most fucked up part of the story. Nearly everyone that hears about it, including the police come back with the response "that's typical for the area" etc. in a sort of boys will be boys attitude. So if someone gets their face blown off in tacoma do the police just say "well that's hilltop for ya". It's also frustrating that when the officer arrived I knew that the suspects were still up the dead end road, as no cars had driven by since the incident, all it would have taken was one officer blocking the road to find them, but unfortunately since "they do that kind of thing out there" this didn't happen. So if this happened in some nice part of Seattle would the police just shrug it off? The reality is probably still more pathetic than you can imagine. The boys responsible are probably the nephews of the mayor of some local municipality and "Johnny L." probably knows exactly "who done it".

nws

Back in the days of 45 meter ropes (hey, remember?), I climbed a pitch on orbit (maybe the 3rd pitch) and reached a belay with two rusty 1/4" bolts with no nuts or hangers at a 6-inch ledge. I looped these studs with cable and yelled to my buddy not to fall (weighed 'bout 40 lbs more than I did back then). Sure enough, he couldn't hear me and fell off. Fortunately the pitch has enough rope drag that I didn't even feel his weight (although he fell 5 feet with rope stretch).

From the photos, it appears they shot at the rear windows. Unfortunately, this is what some country boys do for fun. They shoot signs, bottles, parked cars that appear to be empty, whatever. The lessons to be learned are: (1) If you participate in this kind of activity, don't assume that nobody is in the vehicle. (2) If you're trying to catch a few winks, park the car and sleep in the woods.

We can only hope those bumpkins didn't realize you guys were in the car.

quote: Originally posted by iain: quote:Originally posted by pope: These days, chasing bolts IS the norm. Long live the Deviants! Judging by BD, Patagonia, etc. marketing juggarnaut I'd say trad is as hip as can be these days. OK! I knew we'd be back in style! Now, if long hair and free lovin' would just come back.

quote: Originally posted by erik: quote:Originally posted by pope: Frankie sez, "Without deviation from the norm, 'progress' is not possible." There's a lot of wisdom in that! so if one is a stout traditionalist.....and they were to follow frankie's excellent device....would that mean tolerance of bolts is a good thing??? or maybe actually, realizing that things will change and that all type of climbing are valid??? just a thought! Good question. I don't think Frankie is saying deviation is advisable; I think he's saying that it is necessary for progress. This is obviously true, since progress means positive change and no deviation means no change. Duh. But deviation isn't sufficient for progress. Progess means not just change. Progess is improvement. Is every change an improvement? In my opinion, the big changes in the standard practices of rock climbing are something other than improvements. They have transformed climbing in such a way that the old (and arguably noble) values have been forgotten (leave no trace; be bold or retreat, but never lower the mountain to your level; rely on yourself, not your 'quipment; etc.) These days, chasing bolts IS the norm. Long live the Deviants!

Frankie sez, "Without deviation from the norm, 'progress' is not possible." There's a lot of wisdom in that!

quote: Originally posted by Muffy The Wanker Sprayer: ummmm, well, you see, I don't actualy have any money, so unless you want to just hang out with me because I am fun well forget it, you money grubbing capitolist Craig, although I am sure POPE rocks and is a great climber there are people who are willing to climb with you just to climb. Look for someone who is still learning but has more experience than you... they are less JADED and more willing to share knowledge for free. be careful and use commen sense. There are people out there who think they can do things that they can't do Hey......whatever! The thoroughness with which you explore the fundamental skills and concepts employed in preventing a potentially fatal accident should NOT be suprervised by a climber with a mediocre level of competence, no matter how enthusiastic or altruistic he/she may be. What price would be too high when your future personal safety will depend on the quality of your preparation? My fee is reasonable. Payment plans will be extended to those with positive credit references.

I'm happy to instruct for $150 per diem or $250 for the Wochenende (just trying to get in the Leavenworth frame of mind). You drive and cook. It'll save you money on library fees. What say?