pope

Rock climbing skills constitute a subset of the skills required for mountaineering. Hence, when we rock climb, we are mountaineering. Unless we are rap bolting or clipping rap-placed bolts. Then I'm not sure what you call it, but I am sure it's got more to do with auto-ejaculation than mountaineering. Well put, young man. Ain't necessarily so. I'm not advocating pins on the Lime Lizard, not in the summer to be sure. I'm just saying that whatever you do to save your ass in a snow storm while LEADING a climb is perhaps more justifiable.....Oh fuck you, it is definitely more justifiable than the contrived act of bolting on rap in order to create a future "lead". He put in a pin or two on the easy section. I'm not promoting this kind of activity, I just think it is bullshit....no, I think it's horseshit to condemn the guy (as Lamby did) when you condone rap bolting. I challenge you to show me the pin scar Collins left up there. If you can, chances are it's now a good nut placement. More than likely, the pin scars left by one guy having a snowy adventure aren't even evident. Can you say the same for rap bolting?

POPE PLEASE READ ABOVE COMMENT! THANKS! Erik....what's with quoting yourself? Can't wait around for somebody to recognize the brilliance and truth in your utterances?

No, it's not obvious. Mountaineering in different conditions requires different strategies. Mountain climbing on the lead is a serious experience. There's nothing artificial about it, and the reasonable measures you take to save your butt are completely ethical. Bolting on rappel with the intent of creating a future "lead"...now that is an abomination. It's ugly, cowardly and damaging, and it's completley unnecessary for your immediate safety. A couple of pins pounded in a snow storm really bother you? But I doubt that when somebody adds a batch of chicken bolts for the complete free ascent, I doubt that's going to bother you. Mr. Collins (think I met you at Spire Rock), pay not attention to the ridiculous attempts to discuss ethics on this board.

About ten years ago, Fred taught a Cascade history course at Green River CC. I was very impressed with his knowledge of the Cascades (and he seemed impressed with my girlfriend ).

You haven't seen Kobe play recently, have you? Most superstars got to be such because they worked their asses off, along with unwavering self-confidence-nay-arrogance. How the hell else you gonna get to be a superstar? And it's a beautiful thing when a superstar maintains his work ethic even after he achieves that status.

And he reaches many generations. My daughter grew up (with and still loves) a kids CD he did with Rosie O'Donnell. I'l bet that was a show worth seeing.

Why is it closed to new routes? Who owns/manages it?

Right on. Smoke the peace pipe . Anything goes. Who cares what the other guy does.......like, you know, if he bolts every square foot of Vantage, glues on a couple of plastic holds, spray paints his name and route name at the base of the wall, chips a few finger pockets, takes a big ol' crap on the belay ledge, plays his disgruntled-youth music loud enough to frighten the whistle pigs, throws his tape wads around.....Who cares? Why the animosity? Gyms are harmless fun. I don't promote them because they seem to be crowded enough. I don't go because it's a long drive, but I do have a 12x12 deal in Pope's garage.

Exactly. I mean, one could imagine that a group of superior climbers might advocate carving finger cracks in the rock or building an escalator to replace the approach trail. I don't think we'd defer to their opinion just because they were competent. Also, all of the name calling and cheap attempts at humor aside (guilty!), I think a well-placed bolt necessary to protect one or two sections of a great line can actually improve the climbing experience offered at a cliff. My gripe is that as a climbing community we seem to have difficulty putting on the brakes once the bolts begin to appear. If every crag had the character of climbing at Vantage or Exit 38 I would sell my gear. Gym climbing, IMO, is great fun and fitness. I climbed in Seattle-area gyms for years.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Too much bullshit in the TR's. I'm thinking Crazy would like no-nonsense approach in the following TR: just the facts

superstar=overpayed, undermotivated pussy.

Your battle cage might get a little more action if you hire a professional to officiate.

Gary who? The club looks fine to me.

And PP, a to you too, you little bitch. I think I'd like to get you all drunk and feed you some swinging . Don't go changin'.

Jay, You're turning out to be a pretty cool cat. A to you, brother Jay. You know, if I were pathetic, getting my 5.9 ass spanked on the bunny slab, I'd still think that the modern application of bolts in places like Vantage amounts to rock abuse, not entirely different than a chair lift on Mt. Rainier. And I'd be right.

And you, sir, can't seem to find an appropriate place to adopt a clever quote. Not once did I imply that I compare to Peter Croft (although perhaps more favorably than you). You are such a dork. You answer Dwayner's assertion that bolting and sport climbing is ethically dubious by questioning his competence, as if to imply (as many people have) that those who oppose bolts are less than competent and, therefore, their opinions don't matter. I counter by saying that I oppose bolts and am fairly competent (while trying to be modest), and then you suggest that I think I am "better than somebody who clips bolts." Then you remind me that you know somebody who can climb better than I. Well, my dad can beat up your dad. Peter Croft has been very vocal about sport climbing, both verbally and by the statement made in his bold approach to climbing. Peter Croft bolts cracks in the Owens River gorge. That's not real rock. neither is smith or vantage! What, you just figured that out?

Petey, I've missed trading insults with you. How long has it been?

PP At least I'm not cruising the bouldering pit for chicken.

And you, sir, can't seem to find an appropriate place to adopt a clever quote. Not once did I imply that I compare to Peter Croft (although perhaps more favorably than you). You are such a dork. You answer Dwayner's assertion that bolting and sport climbing is ethically dubious by questioning his competence, as if to imply (as many people have) that those who oppose bolts are less than competent and, therefore, their opinions don't matter. I counter by saying that I oppose bolts and am fairly competent (while trying to be modest), and then you suggest that I think I am "better than somebody who clips bolts." Then you remind me that you know somebody who can climb better than I. Well, my dad can beat up your dad. Peter Croft has been very vocal about sport climbing, both verbally and by the statement made in his bold approach to climbing. Peter Croft bolts cracks in the Owens River gorge. That's not real rock.

And you, sir, can't seem to find an appropriate place to adopt a clever quote. Not once did I imply that I compare to Peter Croft (although perhaps more favorably than you). You are such a dork. You answer Dwayner's assertion that bolting and sport climbing is ethically dubious by questioning his competence, as if to imply (as many people have) that those who oppose bolts are less than competent and, therefore, their opinions don't matter. I counter by saying that I oppose bolts and am fairly competent (while trying to be modest), and then you suggest that I think I am "better than somebody who clips bolts." Then you remind me that you know somebody who can climb better than I. Well, my dad can beat up your dad. Peter Croft has been very vocal about sport climbing, both verbally and by the statement made in his bold approach to climbing.

Not at all, my son. I was simply comparing and contrasting sport and gym climbing. In conclusion, I found that they compare well and contrast poorly. When I stick out my tongue, you'll know it.

I'm not much into boasting, my son, but let's just say there's a good chance I've free-soloed pitches that your average sport rat couldn't on-sight with a top rope. There are some incredibly competent climbers who feel like bolts are a trashy intrusion on the mountain environment, as well as evidence of a cowardly approach to mountaineering. Maybe Pete Croft could be your role model.

Over in Newbies, in a thread discussing how much experience one should have gained before sport leading, the consensus seemed to say that climbing in a gym is far different than climbing out of doors, even sport climbing. I find myself disagreeing with this opinion and offer the following analysis. Gym-climbing gear issues: One must deal with the complexities of clipping bolts for 50 feet before lowering off a bomber anchor. Sport-climbing gear issues: Read "Gym climbing gear issues". Gym-climbing experience issues: There's a chance that you will be belayed by somebody who has spent more time working on sit-starts than tying knots. Sport-climbing experience issues: Read "Gym climbing experience issues". Gym-climbing communication issues: A nonstandard lexicon may interfere with safety procedures. Instead of asking for tension, somebody may ask you to "take". Instead of telling you that you're on belay and OK to climb, you may be encouraged to "send it" (dude). Sport-climbing communicaton issues: Read "Gym-climbing communication issues". Gym-climbing route-finding issues: You will need to complete difficult sequences of moves ("Gastons" and "pianos", for example) across blank expanses of plywood between wildly colored plastic holds. Sport-climbing route-finding issues: You will need to complete difficult sequences of moves ("Gastons" and "pianos", for example) across blank expanses of crappy rock between manufactured finger pockets. Gym-climbing commitment issues You're probably 15 minutes from the nearest mocha. Sport-climbing commitment issues You're probably 25 minutes from the nearest mocha.

How many hours of my life did I piddle away down at the UW wall? I think it makes the UW one of the best colleges in the state (academics notwithstanding). The UW offers chances to develop climbing skill that you can't really get at a gym. The crack and friction climbing are pretty realistic. This wall (above) has some of my favorite slab problems (texture only for feet): 1. Lay back the central crack (both sides are good and moderate once wired). 2. Lay back the right hand crack. This is 12a in my book. 3. Stem the corner. Finish by grabbing the top of the left slab for added value. Sit start if you're trying to impress Dwayner. 4. Climb the central slab "no rocks". Erik Winkleman showed me this and it took a lot of work. 5.12+? 5. Lay back "Coach's Crack" on the steep wall to the right (aka, "Satan's Layback"). Winkleman on-sighted this!

No man, I haven't been there in a few weeks. Anyway, haven't you heard? There's a new Keebler in town!