pope

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Chips: No, I am serious. there are some nice lines to hammer down there without having to worry about ethics-mongers charging away at you. It doesn't bother me when you call me an asshole for calling you an asshole! When you learn to police your own impulses, the worries you've just described will vanish.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: There are 2000+ routes within 30 minutes travel of Squamish and only about 50 of them are at the Lower Malemute. Personally, I'm not going down there. I've climbed Clean Crack so many times that my first knuckles are shaped like #3 Wild Country nuts. Furthermore, I don't view trespassing as civil disobedience....just disobedience. On the other hand, the routes are superb, and if I were in Fence Rider's shoes, after waiting a couple of years to see the results of access efforts, I'd jump on it. Drooo, follow your own logic. If Fence Sitter "ruins access" by his acts, there are still 2500+ routes within 30 minutes, and with these options, nobody should miss Caboose any more than Fence Poster is right now. Duh. Finally, access can't be denied, it can only be verboten. Without razor wire, dogs and armed guards, anybody who is willing to accept the consequences can climb there .

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: quote:Originally posted by Fence Sitter: thank you pope for being the only voice that I agree with ....i will gladly go and ruin the access for others. i must climb those routes even though there are hundreds of others to choose from Even in the worst case...say old Fence Builder gets hit by a train and the Malamute is closed forever...this would not constitute the "ruin of access", only the elimination of POTENTIAL ACCESS. You can't ruin access that doesn't exist.

quote: Originally posted by wayne1112: Who is the guy in this pict that you are ovbiously obsessed with?? Glad you asked. That's Tom Stoppard...aka Schlangeschmecker....aka Blight!

If these climbs remain closed for several years.....well, let's just say that they shouldn't be missed in your lifetime. You're a responsible person who isn't going to belay off the tracks or get hit by a train, and if it appears that the routes won't be open in the next few years, I'd say go for it. Of course, you should wait a year or two and see what happens, jsut in case progess IS being made, progess that might be hindered by your action. The policy..although it may be legally sound...is absolute bullshit. Such choice crack climbing should be public domain, regardless of who owns it. I can understand the closure of Hot Cherry Bendover as it is in somebody's back yard, but the Malamute is entirely different. People have climbed there without disturbing anybody for decades.

quote: Originally posted by texplorer: Did you forget about soloing? As far as leave no trace its even better than those unsightly TR anchors everywhere. You think I'm joking but then again maybe I'm just a young punk with not much to lose. Maybe your an old man who just can't get it up anymore You really don't know what you've got to lose since your future...the future you stand to sacrifice every time you solo...cannot be presently known. In fact, I once loved soloing...I probably climbed more without a rope than with, back in the late 80's. I had a couple of close calls and then I got wise, but my brushes with death were such that I feel lucky to be here. I climb recreationally; I have a family and a job I really like. Whatever satisfaction I got from soloing was not so great that it would have been worth missing all of this. Also, solo climbing can leave quite a mess....if you splat!

Nice, Peter! And take it from a guy who climbs as "purely" with a rope as he does without one. It is a fact that some climbs are easier to clip up than to top-rope. Take Model Worker for example. If you do the big traverse move dynamically (as many people do), you'll notice that with the bolt clipped behind you it is easier to catch the ledge, as rope drag controls your barn door. I've never come off that move on the lead, but I've missed it a couple of times on TR. My point: TR is not only a purer form of climbing, it is infinitely better for aesthetics at the crag (since it leaves no trace). In some cases it is more difficult than clipping bolts, but in every case it is closer to a sport climber's aspiration (pure movement unencumbered by 'quipment) than sport climbing itself! The absurd examples offered by GregW et al. might be amusing, but I think Johnny B. is promoting top-roping on short crag climbs instead of littering them with bolts. Bachar is king. [ 10-30-2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: pope ]

quote: Originally posted by jon: Trying to decide between these two cameras. Anyone used these? Yes, I saw both on sale in the same ad. and I'm also interested. Anybody?

quote: Originally posted by COL. Von Spanker: Here is the most fucked up part of the story. Nearly everyone that hears about it, including the police come back with the response "that's typical for the area" etc. in a sort of boys will be boys attitude. So if someone gets their face blown off in tacoma do the police just say "well that's hilltop for ya". It's also frustrating that when the officer arrived I knew that the suspects were still up the dead end road, as no cars had driven by since the incident, all it would have taken was one officer blocking the road to find them, but unfortunately since "they do that kind of thing out there" this didn't happen. So if this happened in some nice part of Seattle would the police just shrug it off? The reality is probably still more pathetic than you can imagine. The boys responsible are probably the nephews of the mayor of some local municipality and "Johnny L." probably knows exactly "who done it".

nws

Back in the days of 45 meter ropes (hey, remember?), I climbed a pitch on orbit (maybe the 3rd pitch) and reached a belay with two rusty 1/4" bolts with no nuts or hangers at a 6-inch ledge. I looped these studs with cable and yelled to my buddy not to fall (weighed 'bout 40 lbs more than I did back then). Sure enough, he couldn't hear me and fell off. Fortunately the pitch has enough rope drag that I didn't even feel his weight (although he fell 5 feet with rope stretch).

From the photos, it appears they shot at the rear windows. Unfortunately, this is what some country boys do for fun. They shoot signs, bottles, parked cars that appear to be empty, whatever. The lessons to be learned are: (1) If you participate in this kind of activity, don't assume that nobody is in the vehicle. (2) If you're trying to catch a few winks, park the car and sleep in the woods.

We can only hope those bumpkins didn't realize you guys were in the car.

quote: Originally posted by iain: quote:Originally posted by pope: These days, chasing bolts IS the norm. Long live the Deviants! Judging by BD, Patagonia, etc. marketing juggarnaut I'd say trad is as hip as can be these days. OK! I knew we'd be back in style! Now, if long hair and free lovin' would just come back.

quote: Originally posted by erik: quote:Originally posted by pope: Frankie sez, "Without deviation from the norm, 'progress' is not possible." There's a lot of wisdom in that! so if one is a stout traditionalist.....and they were to follow frankie's excellent device....would that mean tolerance of bolts is a good thing??? or maybe actually, realizing that things will change and that all type of climbing are valid??? just a thought! Good question. I don't think Frankie is saying deviation is advisable; I think he's saying that it is necessary for progress. This is obviously true, since progress means positive change and no deviation means no change. Duh. But deviation isn't sufficient for progress. Progess means not just change. Progess is improvement. Is every change an improvement? In my opinion, the big changes in the standard practices of rock climbing are something other than improvements. They have transformed climbing in such a way that the old (and arguably noble) values have been forgotten (leave no trace; be bold or retreat, but never lower the mountain to your level; rely on yourself, not your 'quipment; etc.) These days, chasing bolts IS the norm. Long live the Deviants!

Frankie sez, "Without deviation from the norm, 'progress' is not possible." There's a lot of wisdom in that!

quote: Originally posted by Muffy The Wanker Sprayer: ummmm, well, you see, I don't actualy have any money, so unless you want to just hang out with me because I am fun well forget it, you money grubbing capitolist Craig, although I am sure POPE rocks and is a great climber there are people who are willing to climb with you just to climb. Look for someone who is still learning but has more experience than you... they are less JADED and more willing to share knowledge for free. be careful and use commen sense. There are people out there who think they can do things that they can't do Hey......whatever! The thoroughness with which you explore the fundamental skills and concepts employed in preventing a potentially fatal accident should NOT be suprervised by a climber with a mediocre level of competence, no matter how enthusiastic or altruistic he/she may be. What price would be too high when your future personal safety will depend on the quality of your preparation? My fee is reasonable. Payment plans will be extended to those with positive credit references.

I'm happy to instruct for $150 per diem or $250 for the Wochenende (just trying to get in the Leavenworth frame of mind). You drive and cook. It'll save you money on library fees. What say?

quote: Originally posted by Muffy The Wanker Sprayer: dear pope, did you higher a guide to learn to climb??? I did take a class, but mostly I learned through reading/experimenting. I had a good friend who knew just enough to get us in trouble. But I was an 17-year-old punk and couldn't have afforded a guide. My folks simply discouraged my participation, but if they'd been smart, they'd have helped me hire a guide (or at least insisted that I hire one). I had no small number of close calls those first few years. We used to go out to Index with only one cam on the rack and see what happened.

FRANKIE SEZ: Don't clap for destroying America. This place is as good as you want to make it.

Supplementary reading certainly won't hurt. Everything you really need to know is in Freedom of the Hills, which is available at the library for free. However, the game is not played sitting down. A former student went to Leavenworth after reading a few chapters of one manual or another. His independent study had resulted in a gap in his understanding, a misconception which wasn't caught by a mentor (I was invited to attend their weekend adventure but couldn't make it). Gravity is a hard teacher. When his TR anchor failed, he fell 35 feet into the talus and with three broken limbs and a broken cheek bone....he got off lucky. The laws of physics were there to find the misconceptions that resulted from his approach to learning the craft. Again, what price is too high? I recommend that you study a good manual, and then hire a guide.

I know, I know...but if I don't get lifted, then the force on me can't be > 150 lbs, right? I think the forces on the top piece of pro are probably a few factors higher. My biggest fall ever was on a #0 TCU, on the 2nd pitch of Beetle Bailey. It was probably 25+ feet, but the cams looked good! With rope stretch and friction/abrasion to the climber, etc., I think forces are usually well below what the 'quipment is designed to withstand. My partner (climbing partner, smarty pants) said he didn't even feel it. Crazy, where you at these days? God I miss you!

quote: Originally posted by CraigA: So what's the name of a good book that you would recommend for learning to place trad gear? Thanks, Craig Drive right past the library and head to Leavenworth where you'll find an (open) book called Gibson's Crack (5.6?).

I'm thinking that a force-on-belayer of 2.8kN seems enormous. There's about .22 pounds in a Newton, and so we're talking about a force of 630 pounds or so. I can't remember catching even a big guy where my feet ever left the ground (I weigh about 150). Interesting discussion nevertheless.