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ditto on #2. It would make life so more simple and easy to follow the rules if everyone just waited to merge 'til it was time. Otherwise you have to wonder about all those boners who wait in the long line, if they're gonna get bent out of shape. As for #3, sounds like a sorta annoying thing, but would you rather the problem just go away, as it sounds like it did, or would you rather view some guy losing it with his kid? I'm curious, cause I'll be getting all bent out of shape with my kids in a public place, and then I'll start worrying if people are getting more imposed upon by having to witness family squabblin' and the one-step away from child abuse deal. And as far as the dumbass NW traffic people go, I think people driving like clueless wanderers is only really terrible if you're in a major hurry. I mean, if you didn't get stuck behind that guy going 55 in the 60 lane, it probably is going to cost you 5 minutes MAX. Probably more like 20 seconds. What bugs me is people who get aggro imposing their rules of the road on people who are in essence not inconveniencing them either at all or very minorly. Here's a grocery store pet peeve: the blatantly confusing value/volume labeling under the prices, where they have like the cheerios listing is $/ounce, the sfway rolled oats is listed as $/pound, and then the next smaller box is listed in $/pint or number of o's or something ridiculous like that.

Yeah shit! We're nowhere NEAR 600K dead yet! Bring it on... and onner and onner. Why be deterred?!! Were the Soviets deterred in Afghanistan? NO! Were we deterred in Viet Nam? NO! Well, not for like 10 years and many many deaths and we/they were totally losing anyway. Let's return to the simple times of the civil war. Why wallow in recent, more relevant, history when we can think back a century ago of an uplifting example of how we perservered through a half-million dead. woo hoo

I think Icegril's post could be poorly interpreted as to make it sound like the site is a bit money hungry. It's not like cc.com is trying to get money by taking away the titles of those who haven't donated. This just came up in conversation among the moderators, and we reminded ourselves that getting a custom title was supposed to be one of the perks for donating to the site. It seemed a little unfair to those who actually did donate that so many titles were just being given out gratis to people who caught the glint of a moderator's eye. So anyway, we're trying to stick to "the rules" a bit more now.

Perhaps "suspects" is the key word there cheif?

Y'know, I was just at the grocery store, and I was trying to think of some grocery store peeve, cause, y'know, I got a million of 'em, but anyway I was trying to think of what peeved me today and I realized that me and my bonkers kids weren't peeved at anyone cause we were the ones probably peevin' people out. Kids whinging shopping carts through the produce section, tearing around corners, yelling, walking abreast in the aisles, I was always screamin' at 'em. We were really peevin' it up! Oh well,you know what they say!

Yeah. F'n cellphones on the bus. What you do, is, since you have to live inside their airy head anyway the whole damn busride, you just turn around and stare at them. React to their conversation. Y'know, be polite. In fact, you can do this to two people talking on the bus. That can be annoying. There are these two old ladies that ride on the bus I am on sometime in the morning. They just gab it up, nonstop the whole time. Talk frenzy. I guess if you turned around and stared at those two, you'd just become part of the koffee klatsch. Kool.

Yeah, I think that's a pretty high number, especially considering the particularly deadly consequences. Has anybody noticed that the food labels now state whether a product was made with the same machinery as other foods that contain peanuts? I think this would maybe be a stupid rule if we were talking about high school, or all of Canada or something like that. But for elementary schools, I think it makes sense. Kids that age, kindergartners especially, aren't always totally aware of dangers out there, especially those secreted in candy. By the way, this prevalence of peanut allergies is supposedly has been increasing quite rapidly, like prevalence of other allergies and asthma, so saying, "we never worried about that when I was a kid and we all survived" is not exactly relevant in this discussion.

Well sorta. But there's a non-trivial percentage of kids with peanut allergies, many of whom are at risk for fatal reactions (anaphlactic shock). Just checked the web and the estimates of how many kids are susceptible and it looks like they range from 1 to 3%. My kids have consistently had kids in their classes with peanut allergies and it's a real PITA to try to find something else that our kids will eat besides peanut butter to pack in their lunches every day. But just the same, I'd sure appreciate the effort if my kid were at risk for a fatal reaction just because some kid gave him some food accidentally spiked with peanut butter.

Wow Allison, that is quite interesting. I had the idea that ALPS was some sort of yahoo fringe group. Your description makes much more sense with the current reports of the FS bringing the hammer down. Given this history I guess I can understand their slippery slope fears about the IB route and trail. But it is definitely ONLY that. I really don't think IB is going to amount to much impact. The climb just doesn't have that much carrying capacity, the approach is stiff, it's a bit of a daunting effort for a novice/low intermediate climber, and soon the road to the start of the approach is going to be closed at least half the year. If left there, IB is not going to get 1/10 the climbers the Tooth will in the next 10 years. Add this to the fact that as a group, climbers are relatively low impact. Climbers of this route are not even going to have a chance to trash the area like has been done at, say, Smith Rock. The area where IB sits will not allow a proliferation of climbs spread out. The route starts in a small funnel and basically won't allow any variations of interest. I don't think IB is an egregious offense to the Wilderness. It is a route that climbers will value, but should not lead to widespread degradation of the area. It is not in the heart of the wilderness rather, so near the boundary that apparently it might not have even been known to be in Wilderness when the routesetters began work. I must concede that it sounds like it is officially in a the wilderness area. Perhaps its existence does break specific rules. However, I think that if ALPS were to relent on this particular route, because it is NOT an extremely damaging route, because it will be a valued route, that this action could result in goodwill among ALPS and climbers. This would make it much easier for ALPS to work with this WCC that Matt and others have been working to form to prevent climber degradation that may be much more damaging than IB will ever be. Hopefully ALPS will not continue to take the hard line. I think they'll see from this thread that many climbers are supportive of their conservation goals. But I think that by being unnecessarily combative like apparently wanting to extend their jihad against climbers outside the Alpine Lakes to places like Darrington, they will make enemies of potential allies. Maybe they enjoy being hated, but I doubt it. I seems much more constructive to work with groups, be inclusive, perhaps make compromises, but work toward a common goal.

Lava Dome, Cinder Cone interesting.... Yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd do fine. I've done ten mile hikes in 'em. Just bugged my feet sometimes. Course, I don't have a history of broken feet. They seem like they'd be really comfy if they were big enough. They seem to be showing no sign of wear, and I used 'em pretty hard last season.

Yeah! I got some and they rock, for rock climbing. I have slogged through snow in them too. They're OK, but get soaky pretty damn quick. My experience is a bit complicated. I ended up getting them a bit small and it turns out this makes them really great for rock climbing. In fact I don't really notice much of a difference from my rock shoes, but I haven't really tried them on harder (> 5.8) stuff. This does make them a bit uncomfortable on long hikes though; i.e., probably giving myself irrecoverable foot damage doing stuff like N Ridge of Stuart in them. But anyway, I like 'em. Heard they're expensive though. I got 'em on sale at the employee store, so I wouldn't know. edit: oh yeah, and every old skool guy I ever head out into the mountains with comments that they look just like some mythical Nike approach shoe from back in the day that were so indestructible that Nike stopped makin' 'em cause the market was too small for a shoe that people only needed one pair ever of.

What for? Seems like this thread is pretty topical with respect to access issues to me.

Chicks really dig clever guys who know just when to bust out that oh so perfect Monty Python Holy Grail line. Then follow it up with a few more. They really like that. Trust me.

Wake me up when you geeks move on to Star Trek and/or Douglass Adams. So I can make fun of you some more.

Offer a free drink and Klenke'll explain whatever you want to hear

I agree that a coalition representing all climbers would be a good thing. I urge one of you guys to do something about it, or failing that, make your views heard on this message board since Matt informs us that the USFS is probably reading this thread. However, I think what Matt and Pax are talking about is a good thing too. If there is some organization among route developers specifically, then the USFS or whomever has a gripe, has somewhere to go to find out information, or say, "cut it out", or whatever, with respect to some new route or activity that is causing consternation. Getting route developers organized into a loose group that can respond to possible problems directly or indirectly caused by their specific actions is a positive idea and a doable idea. I think Matt should be commended for working toward this, AND for telling everybody on the board about it.

Chimney Rock (WA), via either the East Face or the North Face. North Face is easier approachwise and climbingwise. I think. I haven't done the East Face but have heard many stories. Depending on your speed, the W. Ridge of Sherpa (already mentioned) and/or N Ridge of Burgundy Spire might fit your six hour requirement , as would NE Butt Triumph. And of course, W Ridge of Prussik fits your requirements perfectly.

Speaking of LBJ, I got a great idea for Bush, the Republican party, our Nation, and the World. Total win win win win situation. Like LBJ, Bush outa announce he will not seek reelection because of his LBJ-in-Vietnam-like debacle. The republicans quickly tap McCain, who even with a write-in vote would trash Kerry by a landslide. Bush got what he wanted done (revenged his Dad) and gets out of the limelight before he is thoroughly discredited and disgraced. The GOP retains hold the presidency (the pro-lifers will rejoice). Our nation and the world benefit by having a reasonable administration in office which is infinitely more likely to steer us out of the storm into which BushCo has dumped us. Great idea, no?

What was the snow level? It seemed pretty warm the last couple of days rouuuuuunnnnnnd heeeeeeeeee-yer.

check out these poll results from www.pollingreport.com

still employing the mud-people strawman eh JayB? Seems to me what really animated the opposition to this war was those damn pictures. If we just heard stories about our guys torturing those we are liberating this would have never happened. Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that now "3 US Marines Dead" has become such commonplace that it is not even the top story anymore. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that a line of former generals are coming out of the woodwork to lambaste (in hindsight) a stupid policy with no chance of winning. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that we are dropping the ball on our fight about terrorism because we have our hands totally full trying not to get our asses handed to us on a platter in Iraq. Maybe it's because people are getting the message that ordinary US average Joes are beginning to have to sacrifice for this war, not just the coalition of the willing; that is, those that volunteered to be in the army reserve. Maybe the weight of lie upon lie upon lie is starting to knock down the Bush whitehouse of cards. Maybe some of this stuff is what is animating opposition to the war. Maybe it's not just those stupid no more blood for Patchouli Oil braindeadheads? Check out www.pollingreport.com. See how many people are enjoying this Iraq war. There sure must be more hippies-for-terrorism out there than I thought! Amazing.

No, both these positions are consistent with denying the right to decide what happens to a person's own body.

Yeah sorta like his There's terrorists among us, gonna kill us, 90% sure, this summer! No special reason to say this now, no need to raise the threat level, don't really need to put the authorities on extra alert. But ... There's terrorists among us, gonna kill us, maybe we'll get you some pictures. --- repeat when Bush popularity levels fall ---

life begins at 40

still not working, unless I turn off the virtual firewall working now! (the little click 'em-post guys, that is. Still no other pics like the post title icons [e.g. Dave Shultz green smile], but who cares about those guys anyway? )