Sport vs Trad

[Raindawg]

if raindawg were really interested in changing minds or getting people to think seriously about his ideas, he'd adopt a different tactic. getting up on the podium and self-righteously haranguing everyone, however, is probably the best way to drive everyone onto the other camp.

 

You sound like Matt P. who used to lecture me about my style. Too bad. My style on this topic is “IN YOUR FACE”. If you don’t like it, or you feel it wins less converts, so what…I ain’t gonna convert your closed mind anyway, but at least people will be aware of the issue and its INTENSITY. (And by the way, I have won “converts). Thoughtful folk will consider both sides and make a choice, no matter who the spokesman might be. And yes, I have thoughtfully considered the typical current perspective in which sport-bolting is acceptable and have thrown it out the window as inferior.

 

The fact is, many of you don’t like the implications of tossing your beloved sport-bolts to the wayside. “Leave no trace” is a mantra you’re willing to accept for backpackers but somehow it doesn’t apply to your climbing habits. Maybe because you think you’re “badder” and “hangin’ it out there” more than those wimpy hikers so the normal parameters don’t apply? Whatever.

Sport bolting is the dumbed-down, low learning curve voyage to cheap thrills and the only reason land managers don’t complain is BECAUSE MOST PROBABLY DON’T KNOW ABOUT IT. And when they do, they’ll more than likely shut you down.

 

Also, consider this: most of this crap takes place on PUBLIC LAND. I don’t want you putting up a delightful and convenient picnic table in the Enchantments, and I don’t want you putting up a delightful, convenient and permanent sport-climb up there, or anywhere else on MY land either. You'll hike out your candy-bar wrapper, and probably chastise others who don't, yet have no problem leaving a more or less permanent souvenir trail of your passing to be noted for generations to come,

 

So, clean up your act on your own, or The Man WILL intervene. It’s on the near horizon.

 

For the most part, our ethical concerns are of most interest to climbers and less of interest to land mangers or conservation groups or other recreational users unless, as in the case of bolts, they see limiting bolts as a way to limit climber numbers and the broader impact that is associated with a popular climb or climbing area.

 

Read again what I wrote above. I would suggest that land managers are quite concerned when people are adding or subtracting to public or private property, especially without their full knowledge. If they knew the degree to which any jack-donkey can rappel off a cliff with a drill and leave a permanent metallic trail, I would venture to say that they would be appalled and would react.

 

Leave little or no trace….most outdoor pursuits adopted that perspective years ago…the clean-climbing revolution had a great start but fizzled when seduced by the convenience and safety of sport-drilling which evolved/devolved into the status quo. (And it wasn’t all about the convenience of the new clean technology e.g. the clean ascents in Yosemite by Bruce Carson, Doug Robinson, Galen Rowell and others who set out to make an environmental point!)

 

Is this above really that radical to you?? Really???? If so, then you’re way behind the times…you’re in a Dark Age… the average Boy Scout has a more clearly defined environmental ethic.

 

 

 

[Raindawg]

secondly, i'd like to report on my progress today. i put a bolt above the crux, which definitely made it easier to work out. damn it's good! overhanging, with two slopey pinches and a heel-hook. trick is controlling the heel to a toe, then a controlled dyno to a high sloper right hand. actually hit the hold today! put the anchors in too, so the whole rig is ready to roll. 13c to an ok rest to a v11 boulder problem. as siked as i've ever been. just like UW rock like the old days, eh eric?

 

have fun! love, kimmo

 

Kindly share with us the location of your SPECTACULAR new and exciting bolted route so we can contact the land manager and learn if your "masterpiece" is acceptable...or are you afraid of the implications????

 

by the way, it's "psyched", not "siked".

 

just like UW rock like the old days, eh eric?

 

No, man....that just seems like a gratuitous throw-out comment to acknowledge that you knew "pope" way back when. Ain't you special! And oh, all them bolts at the UW rock! I was just out there a few days ago and didn't see a one! Where'd they go?

Ask the local MAN if you can add some....I don't care...it's as artificial as it gets already.

 

love, "raindawg"

[PhöQ]

Kindly share with us the location of your SPECTACULAR new and exciting bolted route so we can contact the land manager...or are you afraid of the implications????

 

by the way, it's "psyched", not "siked".

 

love, "raindawg"

 

[Raindawg]

 

[StevenSeagal]

And oh, all them bolts at the UW rock! I was just out there a few days ago and didn't see a one! Where'd they go?

 

 

There's still several installed for top ropes at the top of the three tallest walls there, dawg. I guess if you were capable of climbing that high you would have seen them, they've always been there. But oh well. Keep practicing.

[StevenSeagal]

My style on this topic is “IN YOUR FACE”.

 

 

...and crying a river of martyrdom when your poo gets flung back in YOUR face.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I ain’t gonna convert your closed mind anyway, but at least people will be aware of the issue and its INTENSITY. (And by the way, I have won “converts). Thoughtful folk will consider both sides and make a choice, no matter who the spokesman might be.

 

 

Wow, it's Jesus Christ incarnate. Don't shoot the messenger, everyone, he's just telling us the TRUTH! It's up to us to choose between good and evil.

 

So do your converts stay at your Guyanan plantation full time or part time?

[Raindawg]

And oh, all them bolts at the UW rock! I was just out there a few days ago and didn't see a one! Where'd they go?

 

 

There's still several installed for top ropes at the top of the three tallest walls there, dawg. I guess if you were capable of climbing that high you would have seen them, they've always been there. But oh well. Keep practicing.

 

Seems to me that there were some sort of U-shaped rungs...ain't that appropriate!

Add some more if you like...it's a hunk of concrete with the potential for some good times.

 

[Raindawg]

I ain’t gonna convert your closed mind anyway, but at least people will be aware of the issue and its INTENSITY. (And by the way, I have won “converts). Thoughtful folk will consider both sides and make a choice, no matter who the spokesman might be.

 

 

Wow, it's Jesus Christ incarnate. Don't shoot the messenger, everyone, he's just telling us the TRUTH! It's up to us to choose between good and evil.

 

So do your converts stay at your Guyanan plantation full time or part time?

 

Scared of IDEAS??? Reject them if you want! You act as if you're being forced to accept them.

Don't even want to read this stuff because it's just so darn annoying?????

Easy solution! You see the name "Raindawg" attached to the post...scroll on by!

 

buh by!

 

 

[el jefe]

I ain’t gonna convert your closed mind anyway, but at least people will be aware of the issue and its INTENSITY. (And by the way, I have won “converts). Thoughtful folk will consider both sides and make a choice, no matter who the spokesman might be.

 

 

Wow, it's Jesus Christ incarnate. Don't shoot the messenger, everyone, he's just telling us the TRUTH! It's up to us to choose between good and evil.

 

So do your converts stay at your Guyanan plantation full time or part time?

 

Scared of IDEAS??? Reject them if you want! You act as if you're being forced to accept them.

Don't even want to read this stuff because it's just so darn annoying?????

Easy solution! You see the name "Raindawg" attached to the post...scroll on by!

 

buh by!

 

the angry little man has spoken.

 

[el jefe]

... is probably the best way to drive everyone onto the other camp.

 

No haranguing required, pretty much everyone is already in the other camp. Personally, I'm not trying to sway a soul, just pointing out how powerful the self-reinforcing group-think of the vast majority really is. Sort of like trying to convince commercial fishermen we might be overfishing the resource. And again, for me it boils down to that 'climbing' vs. 'adventure climbing' deal.

 

if you aren't "trying to sway a soul". then what reason is there for you to point out "the self reinforcing group-think"? i mean, if you aren't attempting to achieve some sort of dialogue, then are you just being a dick? seems to me if you didn't really care what people think, then you wouldn't bother posting in a thread like this so the fact that you do post means you are just being ornery, as my dear old mom would have put it.

 

simply put: what's your motivation for talking to people if you aren't trying to have a conversation in the first place?

[pope]

"Sport climbing is the only way to get strong, and that justifies our trail of trash."

 

 

What would Johnny say?

 

he would say "hey look. I can pink point anything"!

 

 

You should research the history behind this climb:

 

father figure at joshua tree. scott cosgrove route. bachar worked it, redpointed it, then soloed it after getting it dialed. straightup sporto method to get to the soloing bit.

 

 

Not quite accurate. After one fall, and pissed that he hadn't flashed a route put up in what he considered poor style, he immediately soloed it. Quite a statement.

 

[mattp]

Dawg, I’ve talked to lots of land managers about bolting practices and a wide variety of management issues and I have yet to meet one who is really focused on this issue unless they are a climber as well as a land manager.

 

I suppose we could argue whether it is appropriate but climbers asking for road access, bathrooms, and policing represent bigger immediate challenges and such things as our impact on vegetation and wildlife and our interaction with other recreational user groups also tend to draw more attention than bolts. I know: you or others have at times said that bolts are or should be seen as the key to all of these matters because if they took away all the bolts they wouldn’t have all those pesky climbers to worry about. There could be some truth to this but in simple cost/benefit terms I doubt it would pay off from a management perspective for all the rangers in the state to engage in an anti-bolt crusade and, even if it were successful, they’d then have to figure out how to stop drawing hunters and fishermen and mountain bikers….

 

You have your point, Dawg, but from my perspective John Frieh was right in hinting that the "ultimate" questions at least have something to do with questions of time and place and balance.

[richard_noggin]

I’m so glad they dragged this topic to spray right off the bat... THANKS MODS, I know most of you don’t even climb much anymore and are just lonely and looking for attention (crotchety old men).

Consider this I just got a beta sheet with over 30 new routes about an hour out from Seattle on some stellar rock, right on top it says NO INTERNET PLEASE this is directly related to this site so when Raindawg aka DON RYAN trolls you into a tread like this and POPE aka Eric Mohler chimes in to back him up and Joseph gets on his soap box, the rest of us are just screwed out of beta and powers to be use shit like this to tighten the reins on our sport

I got this off this site a long time ago, its controversial but I think it says it all in a funny way.

DICK

 

 

[Off_White]

Oh no no no, you're wrong Dick. People stay away from this site because of the blatant pro-bolt policies of the admins and moderators, haven't you been reading this whole thread?

 

[mattp]

You are right, Dick, that in at least a couple instances a bolting argument on cc.com has drawn ire or concern or direct intervention from rangers. Here too, however, we've seen them react more strongly to other matters such as when an anti-bolt crusader urged climbers to ignore falcon closures some years back or when some of dem dare adventure climbers wrote about using a machete in the wilderness or somebody else posted about doing something illegal with a law enforcement officer.

[lancegranite]

It sure was nice to dawn patrol some of my fun new bolted climbs this morning at 5:30!

Back to the house to see the wife off to work, then it's off to scrub my new crack route.

Climbing is fun!

[Off_White]

Climbing is fun!

 

Oh no no no, you're wrong Lance, climbing is about cheating death and being special, haven't you been paying attention? In fact, climbing is about what I say it is, not what you say it is.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I ain’t gonna convert your closed mind anyway, but at least people will be aware of the issue and its INTENSITY. (And by the way, I have won “converts). Thoughtful folk will consider both sides and make a choice, no matter who the spokesman might be.

 

 

Wow, it's Jesus Christ incarnate. Don't shoot the messenger, everyone, he's just telling us the TRUTH! It's up to us to choose between good and evil.

 

So do your converts stay at your Guyanan plantation full time or part time?

 

Scared of IDEAS??? Reject them if you want! You act as if you're being forced to accept them.

Don't even want to read this stuff because it's just so darn annoying?????

Easy solution! You see the name "Raindawg" attached to the post...scroll on by!

 

buh by!

 

 

Not scared of ideas, but ideologues are another story.

 

Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler were full of IDEAS too.***

 

 

***just figured this thread didn't yet have a stupid Nazi reference. Thank you for allow washed up actor to perpetuate innane thread through Friday!

[StevenSeagal]

Climbing is fun!

 

Oh no no no, you're wrong Lance, climbing is about cheating death and being special, haven't you been paying attention? In fact, climbing is about what I say it is, not what you say it is.

 

 

believe whatever you want off, I know I'm right and if you can't see that, it's your loss!

 

 

[StevenSeagal]

In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons.

[StevenSeagal]

Better to die than weight the rope, everyone. Best tell your loved ones to prepare to celebrate your imminent martyrdom.

[billcoe]

Consider this I just got a beta sheet with over 30 new routes about an hour out from Seattle on some stellar rock, right on top it say NO INTERNET PLEASE this is directly related to this site so when Raindawg aka DON RYAN trolls you into a tread like this and POPE aka Eric Mohler chimes in to back him up and Joseph gets on his soap box, the rest of us are just screwed out of beta and powers to be use shit like this to tighten the reins..... DICK

 

Thanks Dick. So true. It reminds me of the firestorm that Mike and Erik caused on this site when on the first ascent of Mox Peak (no bolts) a bunch of people were aghast that they had the termidity to have a campfire to try and dry out after being rained on in the wilderness. I'd like to point some things out which I believe. Bolting isn't anything akin to wiping out the Buffalo. Bolting routes will lead to more routes, not less. The fact is that even if there were no bolts anywhere there would still be route exploration and eventually you have less "new" routes to go explore. The route exploration will have netted some new stuff to climb and expanded what is available. This is particularly true where there is a dirt covered cliff that has some loose boulders and dirt tossed off so that climbing there becomes ...wait for it..."safer"…..gasp. I don't see it as a "consumable" thing, but as a good thing to have more places to climb. So as far as use of bolts being the extinction of the Buffalo, I don't buy it. Just our presence and innate human desire to explore will lead to these places being hunted down, found and climbed in. That’s how we roll as humans. There will be less to explore in our kids generation, just like we have less to explore in our times vs. our parents. Yet they will have many more places to go climb, and plenty of adventure in doing so as long as existing routes, like your Menopause, do not get bolts tossed into them by those who follow. Should we then stop ALL new routes, bolts or not, so that our kids can have some adventure? Speaking for myself, I don't think so.

 

Last night I was reading a story about a new paving project in the Columbia River Gorge specifically designed to allow hiker access. ON PUBLIC LAND!!!!(emphasis for Don) They were PAVING a road so as to exclusively enable hiking, biking and access. True dat: read it here: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_080609_news_columbia_gorge_trail.b5c1dbf6.html?npc

I not only do not shrink in horror over this but I think this is an awesome thing. I've seen parts of the Simon Benson Military road through there that have totally disappeared in 30 years of non-use. Sort of like the jungle just grows over it and reclaims it. I don't fear man bulldozing a cut and blasting some rock. This is huge impact, and a huge project which will bring thousands and thousands of people, a lot of them driving in from out of the area and other states. They'll be walking all over native plants, tracking in dirt from other locations, shitting and pissing all over the woods and having a big impact. Yet they will be enjoying the woods and the trail, and the impact once the trail is in is not that large. Compare it to the bolt issue of a few climbers who want to climb a few routes that do not have cracks in it. Tiny piece of inert metal that you can't wee from a short distance away, and climbers on rock, not trampling the plants which are prolific except in a narrow path. My photos below show no plants will be trampled. Significant difference of scale, yet they are in many ways similar. It is a lot of time, planning and money to do this paving work. Do you all oppose this as well? I don't, and I'm asking for the same thing that the hikers and bikers are getting, access to the wilderness and some special areas. I don't need 73 miles of it like I think that trail alone is getting, I'm talking about 50 feet of cliff there there, 300 feet there and it will impact of a few climbers only. Will this paved road lead to the extinction of the Buffalo as well? Yes, in the sense that guys like Hal Meyderdyck want to just go wander in the bush alone off trail for weeks or months will have fewer places to go walkabout in the wilderness. Is this the end of civilization like the use of bolts some of you compare it too? No, there's so much wilderness in the gorge which will never be paved and it would be crazy to suggest that this paved road will just lead to other paved roads for hikers until the entire gorge is paved. Same argument applies to bolts as well and the use of bolts increases the amount of climbs available, not decreases it. Climbers, like the hikers in the above linked story, will be able to enjoy new places and interesting differences in rock texture and locations. As long as folks don't go add bolts to existing routes, and they try and minimize the use of them I don't and will never agree to the objections people have with them. I speak only for myself.

 

 

I don't disagree that paving a large and long new hiking trail in the gorge won't bring more people into hiking, it will. As will bolts bring more new climbers. Yet we can go hike in downtown Portland on a weekend and see few others on the Wildwood Trail, and the same thing applies to climbing. There is a rare party on Free Lunch or Zebra Zion, 2 long 5.10s at Smith, despite the fact that nearby bolted routes are swarming. I suspect that anyone who thinks that there isn't room for it all just needs to get out more cause as near as I can tell THERE'S ROOM FOR IT ALL X2 !!!!

 

 

 

regards!

 

Oregon Granite, lots of it, seen here in leave no trace mode.

 

Andesidic welded tuff-conglomerate below, I dare you to find any trace Don. BTW, bet I can find a trace where they added the new bathroom/road/picnic area in Yosemite and the paved hiking trail in the gorge and maybe from Google earth.

Location of climber on above photo noted below @ 25 metres. Where's the traces you are discussing? I can't see it from here, let alone from that pic of the base of that route. Your 600' rope would not reach the bottom if you wanted to toprope this, so forget that idea. There is less trace here than any hiking trail or campground that you care to show me, so I call bullshit on your leave no trace philosophy argument.

 

Started another new route today and finished the first pitch. @ 56 meters/190 feet of 5.7-5.9 with 24 protection bolts and 5 belay bolts. So 29 bolts total, out at Cathedral Formation today. Route name: The Dragons Spine. Do you want to see pictures? Yes you do yes you do!!!

 

Good Great stuff.

 

 

 

It is like nothing else in Oregon, it's frikan amazing!! Any of you want to sit at home in your dark little rooms or at work in your cubicals and pound your keyboard and not want to climb stuff like this? Ain't me! Do you have any clue on how good this is? Not only do I know you don't, but your opinion doesn't mean sh*t to me Don so lets ask the Sofa King. "Hey Sofa King: is this shit great?" (Sofa King replys) "NO! THIS CLIFF IS SOFA KING GREAT!!! " As far as you wanting to know where it is, you'll get that info with everyone else as I plan on sharing with all so my brothers in arms can enjoy this super location and fantastic climbing.

 

 

SO FUK*ING GREAT IS RIGHT ! Incredible stuff and I'm sitting at the base in a cushy Adirondack chair and looking out (past the cliff behind me and the one to my immediate front)to 3 distinct other cliffs through binoculars THAT ALL HAVE DIFFERENT ROCK FORMATIONS! Totally and radically different.

 

Cliffs everywhere and not a climber anywhere but us and we're having a great time....I need a shower now, cya!

Edited August 16, 2009 by billcoe

[Rad]

Cool Lance. Dawn patrol rocks!

[Kimmo]

Kindly share with us the location of your SPECTACULAR new and exciting bolted route

 

oh it's somewhere not far from seattle....hidden in the trees....damn the whole wall overhangs about 20 to 30 degrees the whole way, 70 feet or so. we alls got lucky with this one. about 30 routes so far, all top shelf units. TOP SECRET though donald!

oh and there's a 13a there that'd be PERFECT for you. it's mainly fitness without any rilly hard moves. you'd be SIKED!

 

but don't worry: all bolting is done ground up by hand drill without even using hooks, and minimum bolt spacing is 50 feet.

 

i'll post some photos!

 

 

 

just like UW rock like the old days, eh eric?

 

No, man....that just seems like a gratuitous throw-out comment to acknowledge that you knew "pope" way back when. Ain't you special!

 

love, "raindawg"

 

NO WAY! WE WERE FRIENDS! BEFORE YOU AND HIM WERE! ME AND POPE were TIGHT! we shared beta on The Razor, and the Tekau Problem, and did laps on Coach's Crack. He was my Buddy. by the way, i AM special. we all are. you are special too!

 

love, kimmo