erik Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 "we all clip those damn things with an expectation that they're virtually bomber." We? Speak for yourself. Numerous bolts are suspect. Yeah, those things are snapping off and pulling out all the time. Can't go a day at Smith without hearing that melon-on-pavement-type of sound every couple hours. Suspect, suspect, suspect. splish! splash! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Tex just pulled a bolt off of Monkey Face over the summer. it was on a bolt ladder I think. The bolt came out as he was unhooking his aider from it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Those bolts are different, they're always loose, and they're in that shitty red tuff that's all crumbly, unlike the super-bomber yellow variety. Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Tex just pulled a bolt off of Monkey Face over the summer. it was on a bolt ladder I think. The bolt came out as he was unhooking his aider from it New this week at TROLLER.COM: Glue on bolt hangers. Breaking strength 0.1 kN. Comes with fake stud so it looks like it is a drilled bolt. Glue these babies on the rock, throw your chalk bag at a few random spots, BINGO instant sporto trap! watch em crux, and go to grab the draw...pop! pop! pop! just like Pringles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Tex just pulled a bolt off of Monkey Face over the summer. it was on a bolt ladder I think. The bolt came out as he was unhooking his aider from it New this week at TROLLER.COM: Glue on bolt hangers. Breaking strength 0.1 kN. Comes with fake stud so it looks like it is a drilled bolt. Glue these babies on the rock, throw your chalk bag at a few random spots, BINGO instant sporto trap! watch em crux, and go to grab the draw...pop! pop! pop! just like Pringles! Don't forget the colored tape marking the holds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Forgive me for drifting back toward main topic. I am once again hearing the anti-bolt brigade talking out both sides of their mouth. Let me ask you this:In your opinion, is ALL bolting bad, or is OVERbolting bad? Is it acceptable to bolt a line that does not go free? What about bolts at the rap stations? Should there be a ban on bolts in the NFs, the Wilderness, anywhere? What about existing bolts? Should they be removed? I recently tried to tease out this discussion with one of our most fervent anti-bolting posters, but was shut down in a most hostile manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Forgive me for drifting back toward main topic. I am once again hearing the anti-bolt brigade talking out both sides of their mouth. Let me ask you this:In your opinion, is ALL bolting bad, or is OVERbolting bad? Is it acceptable to bolt a line that does not go free? What about bolts at the rap stations? Should there be a ban on bolts in the NFs, the Wilderness, anywhere? What about existing bolts? Should they be removed? I recently tried to tease out this discussion with one of our most fervent anti-bolting posters, but was shut down in a most hostile manner. bolts shmolts "No chalk? I'll smear their holds with JELLY if I want to!" - Mark Twight paraphrasing Reinhard Karl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Not all bolting is bad (go ahead, Dwayner, we're waiting for your response). In areas such as Smith, the accepted ethic for the area is having bolts. Overbolting is another issue. I feel that designated sport routes should not be dangerous, ie no groundfall potential, etc, but they should not be overbolted (Flagstone as a case in point, it so fucked up I don't like the place anymore). In wilderness we should minimize bolts, but their use is justifiable if they protect vegetation or other major impact on the environment. DO NOT bolt routes that have already been climbed in better style. Likewise, chopping well bolted, safe, popular sport routes is not much better, especially if they are located in an area that accepts bolted routes. More justifiable, but still generally unacceptable. Let the shit-slinging begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Allison says: "I am once again hearing the anti-bolt brigade talking out both sides of their mouth. Let me ask you this:In your opinion, is ALL bolting bad, or is OVERbolting bad?" Your use of the term "talking out both sides of their mouths" demonstrates that you don't fully understand the issues. It is a very complicated issue. And black and white conclusions probably won't solve the issue. "All bolting bad? Overbolting bad?" Let me make it simple. Bolts, if they are to be placed at all, should be placed sparingly, with each placement being an ethical decision. I see a great lack of this consideration today. What does the relative term "sparingly" mean? That is a problem. I'll say this: if I were the land managers of Smith Rocks and Vantage, I would ban bolts all together. They have been abused. And at Vantage, they are essentially unneccesary where most routes can be top-roped. In a place like that, I would prefer permanent top-rope anchors on top of the crags as a crude compromise to replacing the grid-bolting on the crags below. One of the biggest problems I have with sport-climbing is that it is bolt-dependent, and there is a seemingly lack of concern or even awareness that there are "issues" regarding bolting. "Is it acceptable to bolt a line that does not go free? What about bolts at the rap stations?" I don't know what you're talking about in the first case, but the rap stations require a case by case assessment, as does each and every bolt. I, personally, for example, would leave the bolted rap stations on El-Cap because realistically they save numerous lives. On the other hand, if they were taken away, perhaps more of the unprepared sorts would stay off the routes there if they knew that they would have to be self-sufficient....but then again, there's always the rescue dudes who would be risking their lives to save those who could have rapped...it's a dilemma. "Should there be a ban on bolts in the NFs, the Wilderness, anywhere? What about existing bolts? Should they be removed?" Ban on bolts? Not a bad idea. Existing bolts? Some will say the damage has been done. Perhaps there should be moratorium on all future bolts. Removal should be accomplished only if a means of removal or restoration is used that doesn't further damage the rock. "I recently tried to tease out this discussion with one of our most fervent anti-bolting posters, but was shut down in a most hostile manner." Teased???? If you are referring to me, Miss Allison, and you probably are as you have brought this topic up to me twice, and each time the conversation was INITIATED BY YOU in a hostile fashion and included irrelevant references and false analogies to trails vs. off-trail hiking, etc. Furthermore, I was in relaxation mode each time with little interest in being sucked into an aggressive and likely unsatisfying debate. ahoy. "Dwayner" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distel32 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Not sure if anyone else feels that a certain particular route named washboards is overbolted, in november there was a bolt after every single move! What ever happened to taking those tumbling lead falls on slab? Bolting is always going to happen, yes it's bad in some places, but would there be any 5.14+ routes or very steep overhanging routes without them? Arguing about it seems pretty lame. Every climber at one point or another uses them, so unless you've never clipped a bolt in your life, why keep complaining? Sport climbing is fun unless the route looks like a waffle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Brother Distel say: "Bolting is always going to happen, yes it's bad in some places, but would there be any 5.14+ routes or very steep overhanging routes without them? " Do we really "need" many of those bolt-dependent routes? Why not top-rope them or leave them alone? Anyway, most of those climbs are done by sport-rules, that is, unlimited hang-dogging and rehearsals are allowed. So, given enough time and focus (and some strength training) you, too, can be a 5.14 climber. (It might take you 10 months or practice instead of the ten days of a sponsored professional sporto who does nothing else but train for climbing.) That's a different issue but I thought I throw that in. "Arguing about it seems pretty lame." Nothing lame about it. It's like leaving garbage at a campsite, except the bolts are essentially permanent. It's a serious issue for many people. Leave as few traces of your being there as possible. "Every climber at one point or another uses them, so unless you've never clipped a bolt in your life, why keep complaining?" Having clipped bolts doesn't eliminate anyone from participating in the debate. This ain't about personal hypocrisy or saintliness. Much of it has to do with an environmental ethic. If you are aware of the issues, then you will understand the complaints, whether you agree with them or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Bolted routes are great training for the mountains. Look at Voytek Kurtyka. He led sport 13c, soloed 13a (!), and look at at all the heinous stuff he did in the greater ranges. I know I would be significantly weaker on all routes (trad, mountains, etc) if it weren't for sport and gym climbing. (Slight argument shift) In general, comparing bolts to garbage is somewhat urealistic. Garbage is FAR uglier than bolts, especially if the bolts are camouflaged and used sparingly. Besides, fixed pins are also unsightly. If we don't want to disturb the environment, we shouldn't climb at all. Look at the damage done to the vegetation at the top of popular cliffs. Or scars on trees from pulling rap ropes. Or chalk, for that matter. How about scratches on rock from tools and crampons. Aren't pin scars ugly? No, we don't "need" bolted 5.14s, but do we "need" alpine routes, tool-scarred faces, pin-damaged cracks? How about chalk-smeared cracks? Hell, climbers themselves are visual blights. I would suggest that there are far more destructive behaviors than bolting. New trails every two years comes to mind. Or scree-running tracks, or damage to lichens from humans, or, for that matter, human waste in crevasses, forgotten or abandoned wands. I am not advcating gridbolting, excess is almost never the right path. However, focusing only on bolts, ignoring other considerations is living with blinders on. Anybody here read The Monkey Wrench Gang? How about blowing up some bridges instead of arguing about bolts? How about superhighways? We have seriously altered the evironment by EXISTING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 excess is almost never the right path. truer word were never spoken (or writen as the case may be) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distel32 Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I completely understand both sides of the argument. They are permanent, they aren't that great for the rock, and they aren't the most attractive things. BUT they do open up many possibilities for climbing. Dwayner: "Having clipped bolts doesn't eliminate anyone from participating in the debate. This ain't about personal hypocrisy or saintliness. Much of it has to do with an environmental ethic. If you are aware of the issues, then you will understand the complaints, whether you agree with them or not." If you clip bolts, then don't say they shouldn't be there because you are using them. That's all I want to say dwayner, I'm not trying to pu you down or say you're wrong. This issue though gets brought up by too many people who use bolts all the time. The less impact on nature the better, but we have to be realistic also. Good arguments also dwayner, points well taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Bro. Cracked: Nice attempt at relativistic obfuscation. You and Allison could have a nice chat. "If you clip bolts, then don't say they shouldn't be there because you are using them." Dude....that's a hypocrisy claim. My point is that they should be rare, as should rusty old fixed pins and alpine chalk. I resent the fact that I drive a gasoline powered car. I use it, but I don't like it and I look forward to the future when they will be phased out as they are recognized as being environmentally dubious. In the case of climbing, I can advocate "clean climbing", that is, leaving the rock and mountains in as nice a condition as possible for the ones to come. A lot of people don't want to hear the message because it denigrates their beloved bolt-dependent sport climbing. Too bad. The fewer bolts the better. Since few respect the rants of phony-named posters on an internet chat-room, sometime I'll have to dig up some tasty published opinions about bolts by the likes of Royal Robbins, Rheinhold Messner and Doug Scott. carry on, mister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 What the hell is "relativistic obfuscation"? I'm not going THAT fast. My point is, bagging bolts as environment altering is true, but avoiding greater issues. And now, I'm going to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I'll have to dig up some tasty published opinions about bolts by the likes of Royal Robbins, Rheinhold Messner and Doug Scott. here is one opinion: That sound BRRRRP BRRP BRRP made by a power drill is kewl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 In past discussions of this topic, I've criticized Dwayner and some of his anti-bolt compatriots for being bitter and divisive. However, this time around I'll take Dwayner's side. Bolts ARE inherently ugly and DO NOT belong on the rocks. I clip them, and I have placed plenty of them, but this does not change my fundamental belief that they don't really belong there and they constitute a permanent alteration. As with the burning of fossil fuels, to reference Dwayner's example, I agree that they need to be used in moderation and that many overindulge. I disagree with Dwayner about a place like Vantage or Exit 38, though, because I am willing to accept that measure of environmental degradation at some of our roadside crags and even on some (but certainly not all nor even most) of our more "pristine" rock formations. To me, it is a question of balance. I can definitely understand why, when that balance appears to be completely lost, some would resort to the use of a crowbar. I don't advocate that, and I don't support anybody who argues one side or the other without recognizing the position of "the enemy." Bolt wars and hate-mongering from either side of the issue have and will continue to cause problems that lead land managers to close our climbing areas. I suppose some might take comfort in the idea that there will be no more bolts placed if an area is closed after an agency receives complaints about bolting or after a bolt war erupts into vandalism and other police and political problems, but such a closure would not have been undertaken with environmental concerns in mind and in fact I think there have been some rather arbitrary closures brought about by exactly these kinds of problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Bolts . . . constitute a permanent alteration Only in the time-frame of our own meager lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I so enjoy lobbing a grenade and then hiding under my bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Schuldt Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I was wondering last night when we would see another bolt thrash. Where is Retrosaurous with his 3' long crobar? I miss his spray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysticNacho Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 This bolting debate isn't nearly as funny as the DDD one. I am bitterly disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 are you talking about Doing Da Dishes? scotty-t might have some photos to improve that discussion bwhahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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