outdoor fees...yes again

[Scott_J]

I copied this from another site. I hope this is not going to get chopped because I have done something terribly wrong. But the point here is this. IF ALL OF US WHO BELONG TO THE ACCESS FUND started sending messages to the AF that they should join hands with other outdoor user groups maybe we would have a chance in the fight over the fees.

 

"Went there Saturday and to my surprise there's a new pay box recently installed. Its called a $5 parking fee. One guy I talked to said it wasn't there last weekend when he was there, so they put it in during the week sometime. I know the lake is part of the state park but I think they've gone to far. What do you get for $5, a vault toilet (that doesn't seem to get empied very often), a gravel lot thats been there forever, and no trash cans. This is one of the cleanest fishing put-in's around because most of us that use it care about it and take out our garbage when we leave. So their not using the money for clean-up. And the state stocks the lake with fish, so the money's not going there either. So where's it going, what am I getting for my $5? I probably still fish there but I think this is BS!!!"

OK now if you are interested check this site out

http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=18398&mesg_id=18398&page=

If this is redundant then fucking chop it.

Edited January 21, 2003 by sisu_suomi

[mattp]

Sisu,

I don't run this site, and I don't even moderate this forum, but I don't see any reason why this would get "chopped." You cut and pasted a part of a post from another board and then gave credit by providing the link. You didn't slam anybody personally and your post not only makes sense but it has to do with climbing. Who is to complain about that?

 

I don't know what the Access Fund does or doesn't do in relation to this issue but I agree that climbers could probably benefit by building a coalition with other user groups. When I see rants about off-road vehicals or snowmobiles on Mount Baker or irresponsible hunters or whatever it is, I often think that we probably have more in common with those user groups than we recognize.

 

 

 

 

[Scott_J]

I suggested that we join forces with snow mobile, 4x4 groups and the like to save space for all of us and was rediculed when I did it. The NRA linked forces with all hunting, shooting, firearms groups, plus the "other" outdoor groups...4x4, off road(snow mobiles, dirt bikes, 4 wheelers, etc). Now they are one of the strongest lobbiests in DC.

This is how "we" as a group should go about fighting fees. Sometimes you have to sleep with your enemy to get the job done.

[To_The_Top]

Sisu,

Thanks for bringing this to the front again and with a interesting way of helping preserve what we care about.

 

I hope this is not going to get chopped because I have done something terribly wrong.

Please though, people are not going to get chopped posts unless (atleast from me):

 

A) I get messages from people who find it offesive (read pornographic pics (real fun if you pull up a thread with a pic while "on a break at work"), not pulled is stuff that I dont agree with, but people have a right to say vent (aka gun stuff),

 

B) Threats that come across as real and personal.

 

C) Someone comes out and posts a trip report and then there are a bunch of threats and crud that doesnt apply to the post.

 

D) The person who started the thread requests that it be locked, erased or whatever (BTW you would be surprised at who have asked!)

 

E) Spray, hell it is kinda fun.

 

This is my take on it all, not other moderaters just mine, let the flames begin.

 

 

 

 

[Necronomicon]

It's easy. Don't pay. If you get a ticket, don't pay it. Flood the system with unpaid fines and it will go away.

[allthumbs]

It won't go away goofball. But you will eventually earn a warrant. Congratulations...civil disobedience in all it's glory, with the ultimate victim (as always) the hippie with a cause.

[jon]

Moved to Access Issues Sisu. Nice fly fishing site btw, never seen that before.

 

Unfortunately we will see more fees like this, more state parks are adding fees and more are closing completely. Pretty stupid to have to pay park in the dirt with no facilities a la Vantage. Unfortunately for fishers and climbers et. al., groups that aren't huge money makers like snowmobiling and RV Camper, we just don't have the lobbying power because we don't have the money. I'd rather see the Access Fund join the likes of the Sierra Club and other conservation groups with lobby power. I'd rather lose easy access then see more snowmobiles and dirt bikes. It's not clear to me though exactly what the motorized outdoor groups agenda is. Are they trying to get rid of fees or are they trying bring their facilities deeper in the forest and wilderness?

[Scott_J]

[ I'd rather lose easy access then see more snowmobiles and dirt bikes. It's not clear to me though exactly what the motorized outdoor groups agenda is. Are they trying to get rid of fees or are they trying bring their facilities deeper in the forest and wilderness?

John did I say this? For christ sake think. If a group...Access Fund and AAC join hands with the 4x4 group from Washington state, and some hunting & fishing groups from here does not mean that neither side wants what the other has. IT MEANS THAT WE GET TOGETHER TO STOP FEES. JESUS H CHRIST this makes me mad why is it assumed I am proposing that we give gound to other groups. By the way, John, the other groups feel the same about us. I have friends that 4x4 and they feel total distrust of climbers, hikers, flyfishers, etc. I know why too. Its because these groups have people that reflect a certain attitude..."I AM BETTER THAT YOU". I see it and read it here all the time. Oh, those red necks, those bubbas etc etc. I'll tell you what, if the time came where I had to choose where I'd line up with it would be with them. They are honest hard working people that have solid values and once you are their friend you are a friend. They don't go around stabbing you in the back.

[Fairweather]

Sisu,

 

I agree with you 100%. The arrogance level found amongst many of our fellow outdoor lovers, ie: backcountry skiers, hikers, and even climbers, is so pervasive that I rarely tell anyone I am a participant . It IS too bad we can't ally ourselves with some of these other groups. But it is understandable, to me anyway, why they don't like us. It's too bad.

[catbirdseat]

I don't think it is arrogance at all on the part of climbers. The 4x4 and snowmobile users take away others enjoyment of the outdoors by their very presence, by their noise, fumes, litter and erosion. Attitude aside, the reverse is not true. Climbers, hikers and skiers don't impact offroaders enjoyment of the outdoors one iota, except to the extent they can successfully exclude the latter from gaining a toehold on new territory. Asking climbers to team up with the offroaders is like asking the hen to seek protection from the fox.

[gregm]

I suggested that we join forces with snow mobile, 4x4 groups and the like to save space for all of us and was rediculed when I did it. The NRA linked forces with all hunting, shooting, firearms groups, plus the "other" outdoor groups...4x4, off road(snow mobiles, dirt bikes, 4 wheelers, etc). Now they are one of the strongest lobbiests in DC.

This is how "we" as a group should go about fighting fees. Sometimes you have to sleep with your enemy to get the job done.

 

my understanding is the 4x4's/snowmobilers WANT the fees because if the forest service is making money from them it will guarantee their continued access. i believe their lobby, the American Recreation Coalition, or ARC, actually suggested the Park Pass Fee for this reason.

 

this i feel is the biggest danger of these fees, not the measely $50/year or so it costs our pockets (if you pay them). essentially motorized users are paying the goverment for the privelidge of shitting all over public land.

[mattp]

On the question of "arrogance" I almost agree with Fairweather. Many climbers seem to feel that what they are doing is somehow more important than what somebody does on a snowmobile or dirt bike or with a fishing rod. It is not just the hype associated with engaging in an "XTREME" sport, but there is a widely shared pride in thinking that we, unlike those other people, are the only one who face nature on nature's terms. In addition, there is an environmental ethic that is not necessarily shared by all climbers but is largely so, and can serve as an additional yardstick by which the hunters, 4x4 drivers, or jet-boaters don't measure up. I don't think climbers are unique in taking a snotty attitude toward other user groups, though.

[allthumbs]

Matt, I think many motorized groups care very much about the environment. What makes you an expert on the subject of position?

[mattp]

Trask -

I'm not suggesting that motorized groups do not care about the environment. I am sure some of their members do and some don't -- kind of like climbers. What I am saying is that I agree with Fairweather to the extent that climbers do sometimes adopt a smug attitude that says we are better than others and prevents us from seeing where our goals may in fact coincide with those of other user groups. Do you disagree with that idea?

[cj001f]

"I agree with you 100%. The arrogance level found amongst many of our fellow outdoor lovers, ie: backcountry skiers, hikers, and even climbers, is so pervasive that I rarely tell anyone I am a participant . It IS too bad we can't ally ourselves with some of these other groups. But it is understandable, to me anyway, why they don't like us. It's too bad. "

Fairweather -

It's not just climbers, and hikers who are arrogant.

I've met Flyfishers who dislike rafters, canoeists & swimmers.

I've met mountain bikers who dislike hikers & horses.

I've met horseback riders who don't like people & bikers.

I've met power boaters who don't like sailboats.

I've met snowmobilers who can't understand why skier dont' like them.

the list goes on....

 

It's a small world in the woods near civilization, and many of the groups just don't work well together (mountain bikes don't work well on single track if there are alot of people or horses) in large doses. Add in the general political differences between the communities (hook, bullet & motor is generally more conservative) and you have a recipe for gridlock.

 

[Bronco]

It's Tim Evileyeman's fault! Get 'em!

 

Are these boxes are on the honor system?(don't pay)

 

If it's in a remote area, like Index Town Wall parking lot, how long do you think it will remain in one piece? (4x4+chain+hang it from the Gozilla belay bolts=no fee) "I know I'm supposed to pay, but I just can't lead 5.9 officer"

 

Good effort Sisu, thanks for posting it here, this sucks worse than the demo fee, $5 a pop could easily be $100 in a year, if you don't buy the anual pass. Maybe you could tie your Pitbull to the box so nobody could pay if they wanted to

[j_b]

I think many motorized groups care very much about the environment.

 

I think we have different definitions of 'care' and 'environment'. Anyone who advocates the systematic burning of gas in an engine for recreation in the outdoors should reassess their understanding of these 2 words.

[shuksan]

I think we have different definitions of 'care' and 'environment'. Anyone who advocates the systematic burning of gas in an engine for recreation in the outdoors should reassess their understanding of these 2 words.

You ever take a car to a climbing spot???? Is the gallon of gas you might burn on the way any less polluting because you care so much?

 

I think you're exhibit A for siso

[j_b]

this must be a troll.

 

I am not proud of the gas I burn on my way to somewhere but at least I don't burn gas for the sake of driving around. And I won't discuss damage to fauna and flora that ensues from the use of motorized vehicles. Whenever the use of vehicles to get to a trailhead becomes a problem, then we can discuss that too.

[Fairweather]

JB,

 

you seem to have a great knack for validating my posts.

 

Thanks!

[j_b]

JB,

 

you seem to have a great knack for validating my posts.

 

Thanks!

 

don't feel under any obligation to discuss the substance of mine. We have no interest in common with user groups that advocate the use of motor vehicles in nature for the sake of using them. Anyhow as pointed out by Gregm, the orv'ers want the fees because it validates their activities.

[Fairweather]

"I agree with you 100%. The arrogance level found amongst many of our fellow outdoor lovers, ie: backcountry skiers, hikers, and even climbers, is so pervasive that I rarely tell anyone I am a participant . It IS too bad we can't ally ourselves with some of these other groups. But it is understandable, to me anyway, why they don't like us. It's too bad. "

Fairweather -

It's not just climbers, and hikers who are arrogant.

I've met Flyfishers who dislike rafters, canoeists & swimmers.

I've met mountain bikers who dislike hikers & horses.

I've met horseback riders who don't like people & bikers.

I've met power boaters who don't like sailboats.

I've met snowmobilers who can't understand why skier dont' like them.

the list goes on....

 

It's a small world in the woods near civilization, and many of the groups just don't work well together (mountain bikes don't work well on single track if there are alot of people or horses) in large doses. Add in the general political differences between the communities (hook, bullet & motor is generally more conservative) and you have a recipe for gridlock.

 

Yes, true. But Hikers and XC Skiers (and, less so IMHO, climbers) seem to be the group that doesn't like ANYONE else. They seem to be the only group of those you listed who don't differentiate other select user groups. They just seem to hate them all!

[Fairweather]

JB,

 

you seem to have a great knack for validating my posts.

 

Thanks!

 

don't feel under any obligation to discuss the substance of mine. We have no interest in common with user groups that advocate the use of motor vehicles in nature for the sake of using them. Anyhow as pointed out by Gregm, the orv'ers want the fees because it validates their activities.

 

Jb,

 

I beg to differ...

 

When we try to kick snowmobilers OUT of their existing domain (Yellowstone), and motorcycles out of theirs (Dark Divide), and mountain bikers (non motorized by the way) off of ALL trails, we only create a bad (read: arrogant) image for our sport and harden the position and will to fight of those with whom we could otherwise find common ground.

[iain]

Do you disagree with that idea?

Matt I don't disagree with that idea. Where do you think members of the ARC and the typical hiker/climber/etc can find common ground? I'm skeptical, because these two entities seem to have an entirely different worldview.

[mattp]

Iain-

 

I am not all that well-versed in the ARC, though I have read some about them in the anti fee-demo diatribes from Scott Silver and people like him. I bet, however, that the ARC does not speak for all those who enjoy running snowmobiles or dirt bikes.

 

What I am saying is that the people in those other groups are recreational users just like us, and they are dealing with many of the same land-managers. On Mount Baker, for example, the snowmobile lobby was successful in having a pie-shaped slice of the south slope designated as recreation area rather than wilderness, so they are allowed to ride up to the crater rim. As a backcountry skier and a climber, I use the same trailhead and I am willing to share the mountain with them because I know that it is just about the only alpine mountain in the state where they are allowed. I also know that I will not see them if I go on any side of the mountain other than the Easton Glacier (yes, I know that upon occasion they have violated their boundaries and headed over to the Coleman but this is rare). When I periodically read rants in forums like this board, voiced by skiers or climbers who take offense at their being there, that just doesn't match up with my experience: the snowmobilers on Mount Baker who I have met have been knowledgeable and respectful of other users, and I have had no problem with them. More than anything else, I believe that I have a shared desire to see the place kept clean, the parking lot safe, and to see access maintained even if it may prove inconvenient or expensive for the rangers or a problem for their friends, the loggers or miners who seem to have such a huge pull on how the Forests are run. And I am in awe of their organizational abilities for getting that pie-shaped slice of Mount Baker in the first place. How did they do that? Similarly, I know that just about all the roads between Lake Wenatchee and the Entiat River valley have been designated for motorized vehicle recreation. I have no hard feelings about this but, rather, I wonder how it is that they were so successful as to lobby for such wide access to public lands that, for many of us, seem to be reserved for logging company use only. I DO feel that I share a common interest with those folks who drive snowmobiles over there because we all like to get out there in the winter and spend time in the mountains. Again, I hope they maintain the roads, the parking areas, and the policing of the area, and I hope they do not just do what the logging companies or Disney or Coleman or any other commercial lobby wants and leave the area gated to other users who are not specifically funded by Congress or who pay large user fees. I hope the Lake Wenatchee District of the Wenatchee National Forest is able to engage in long-range recreational planning.

 

I believe that Fairweather and Sisu are right, that where we engage in some kind of moralistic rhetoric about these other user groups, we are missing an opportunity. I am afraid that JB, while stating very clearly a fundamental disagreement with motorized users, fails to recognize that there are some issues on which our interests coincide.

 

-Matt