thoughts on multi-pitch first ascent styles

[kukuzka1]

ok cool, I agree its getting more popular, whether that's good or not remains debatable

Edited October 8, 2015 by kukuzka1

[JosephH]

Alpine 'routesetters' - crikey, just what the world needs. And even if one supports the idea of such suburban alpine pleasures, the stated rationales above are mostly a matter of bias, decidedly weak, or just wrong. Can a paved road, parking lot and McDonalds be far behind...

 

[ivan]

i don't get it joe - young warrior's 5 pitches, this one's 7 - both done in more or less the same style - why the protest?

 

i would agree though, if nothing else, the term "route-setter" is deep-ghey

[JosephH]

i don't get it joe - young warrior's 5 pitches, this one's 7 - both done in more or less the same style - why the protest?

 

Well, I don't know, was the thread a request for honest discussion or feckless praise?

 

And I definitely wouldn't have done YW the way it was put up either. Again, I find the rationales (and thread title) almost more troubling than the actual route and alpine settings are literally the last places on Earth that need 'routesetting' and sport climbs. Do love the code-wording involved with "modern classic", though.

[telemarker]

Were fucked anyways

We need more route setters.

dude I sent the yellow route on the NE face of stuie, its between the red route and the black/white route. was so rad! the route setter is sick, it finishes with this massive dyno to a knarly no hands stance to micro crimps. completely sick! sorry I just couldn't resist. no offence t-mark

 

This is funny.

[kukuzka1]

happy you found the humor in it

[Rad]

I also appreciate the humor and contrasting opinions and am certainly not seeking feckless praise or asking anyone to approve our actions. These are important topics for discussion because rock is a precious resource for all to share.

 

It's easy to go through life these days only interacting with people and content that align with your own views. Google, Facebook, and other IT learning systems are designed to enclose each of us in cozy data/content cocoons so they can quietly suck money out of us as spiders suck the life-juice out of flies. I am glad to break out of that w-w-web and hear a wide range of views presented and defended.

 

So thank you for sharing your thoughts and humor. Perhaps we'll cross paths at a pub club at some point.

 

 

ps. I do not consider myself a route-setter. Mother Nature set the routes long, long ago. We're all just trying to discover, experience, and share them.

[kukuzka1]

alpine settings are literally the last places on Earth that need 'routesetting' and sport climbs.

[WashFly]

Thank you. 'just my thoughts'

 

[ivan]

i don't get it joe - young warrior's 5 pitches, this one's 7 - both done in more or less the same style - why the protest?

 

Well, I don't know, was the thread a request for honest discussion or feckless praise?

 

And I definitely wouldn't have done YW the way it was put up either. Again, I find the rationales (and thread title) almost more troubling than the actual route and alpine settings are literally the last places on Earth that need 'routesetting' and sport climbs. Do love the code-wording involved with "modern classic", though.

i'll grant ye that "route-setting" is right-gay, word-wise

 

i have no skin in this game and engage as a true outsider - i have actually done some climbing in this area though (a simple solo w/ 16 cans of beer i recall up vesper's standard-route n' an enjoyable bivy on the summit) and wouldn't think of it as super-alpine - it's pretty close to a road and the local hills about it are pretty chill, it doesn't feel like the n cascades at all - it's not too different from beacon really

 

if you had put up young warriors in the style of your choice, do you think it would be as popular? like it or not, the meaning of "classic" is definitely caught up in that concept. i'm not hard-core one way or the other - bolting near a natural gear placement is ghey on its face, that i'll gladly grant you, but objecting to bolts in near every situation results in bullshit too. it stokes the ego to see everything as a warrior-hero-poet-god-king, but the truth is everything humans do is horseshit, from graffiti to the grand ducal palace.

[DRep]

Que the supreme ethics enforcer now....

 

Come on dawg, where you at? This is boring without your sage advice

[billcoe]

 

 

And I definitely wouldn't have done YW the way it was put up either. Again, I find the rationales (and thread title) almost more troubling than the actual route and alpine settings are literally the last places on Earth that need 'routesetting' and sport climbs. Do love the code-wording involved with "modern classic", though.

 

I dislike the term "routesetting" as well. However, the fact remains that YW is a fun, challenging route that is rightly popular. Thus it stays {mostly} clean, and stays fun. Last time up it I was looking over at your Lost Warriors route it looked like an abandoned vacant lot and I was reflecting on the difference between the 2. Few go up there and do LW. In fact, I think if you ask yourself how often you have done Lost Warriors vs how many times you've done Young Warriors in the last 2 years, the tally might cause you to reflect enough to come to the same conclusion, and change your viewpoint. (assuming I understand your viewpoint)

 

How many times would that be for each? For myself, I think there is room for both ways in the world.

[telemarker]

ROUTE DEEE-VEHL-UP-MINT! There. All better.

 

christ almighty.

[DRep]

Is there an emoticon for a circle jerk? Because that is all this thread is good for... How many times on this site does this drivel get analyzed and fought over without any general consensus? FWIW, keep your route development techniques/styles to yourself. Ignorance is bliss for the general climbing populace. Knowledge of your actions will only create problems for the whole.

[Choada_Boy]

The Hyperbolometer sure does get pegged.

[JosephH]

So thank you for sharing your thoughts and humor. Perhaps we'll cross paths at a pub club at some point.

 

You're welcome, would love to share a beer if we do...

 

if you had put up young warriors in the style of your choice, do you think it would be as popular?

 

Hmmm. I guess I came up different, with different motivations, and in a different place where few people climbed and everything we touched was an FA. I was also climbing before I was walking and it's always been more about obsession / needing than wanting to climb. Bottom line is I don't climb for other people and it should be fairly obvious by now that 'popularity' isn't super high on my priority list; in fact, it isn't even on the list when doing an FA. But I get the rationale of throwing sport climbers a bone out there on YW p1 given the time, but I still consider it a mistaken thinking.

 

I like it or not, the meaning of "classic" is definitely caught up in that concept.

 

I don't know, is B-Y considered a "classic"? The Rostrum? Astroman? How about Blood, Sweat and Smears? Borderline? If so, they don't see much traffic. And I suspect the definition of "classic" is a constantly 'evolving' concept that's seen a lot more acceleration in recent times then in that past. In fact, adding the adjective "modern" speaks to an almost ADA definition of accessibility and safety.

 

I dislike the term "routesetting" as well. However, the fact remains that YW is a fun, challenging route that is rightly popular. Thus it stays {mostly} clean, and stays fun.

 

Umm, you're conflating a couple of things here. It could / should be a more challenging route in my eyes. And that it stays clean is another issue altogether. If folks would just take responsibility for giving a couple of lines the once over on open they'd all stay clean as well. I was a little aghast to hit YW and find the cam, bail sling, and X'ed loose rock still there, dirt-clogged placements, thorn brambles, and a lot of general loose rock on it. So I went out and did a run up it and cleaned all that shit up. Wasn't a big deal because I both like the route and it's not that much of an inconvenience, but hey, if no one can be bothered...

 

Last time up it I was looking over at your Lost Warriors route it looked like an abandoned vacant lot and I was reflecting on the difference between the 2. Few go up there and do LW.

 

You and I, Karsten and I, Jason and Tri-cities Ken and I, and Cartier and I are the only ascents I know of other than Michael Layton and Marcus Donaldson weaving in and out of it. I'm totally cool with that and don't see any downside whatsoever in the lack of traffic. It is what it is.

 

In fact, I think if you ask yourself how often you have done Lost Warriors vs how many times you've done Young Warriors in the last 2 years, the tally might cause you to reflect enough to come to the same conclusion, and change your viewpoint. (assuming I understand your viewpoint).

 

I have no idea what your thoughts on my viewpoint might be, but as I replied to Ivan above, my climbing is entirely internally driven and my FA's more a matter of outright obsession and utterly devoid of any and all outside considerations beyond the FA itself. If an FA of mine gets climbed again by myself or others, so be it, if not, that's cool too. I just don't think in terms of 'traffic' or 'popularity', but rather of aesthetics, technicality, quality and rhythm of movement, the challenges of protection and doing the FA with the least impact possible - and those are all utterly ancillary to just obsessing over something that's caught my eye. What comes after is pretty much irrelevant to me and will unfold on its own.

 

If someone else gets similarly caught by the same quirky obsession or just gets curious about what's up on a truly remarkable part of Beacon then they'll find their way on their own - or not. Again, how many times does BSS, Flying Circus, Borderline, The Norseman or Windwalker get climbed? Should they be transformed into "modern classics" for the sake of popularity and a higher traffic metric? I don't think so. I personally see remarkably high value in those low traffic metrics.

 

How many times would that be for each?

 

My wife lost most of the use of both arms to an unusual and severe case of double 'frozen shoulder' for several years not long after the LW tree came down and while I was working on Menopause. I gave up pretty much all activities other than working (from home nights) and caring for her during the day for a long time and our lives have only recently returned to 'normal' such that any of this is even remotely on my radar. I could manage dashes to DZ and the odd go up FFA or YW and that was it, so no goes on LW or MP during the past few years. That said, I do intend to get back on LW and see what the toll of all the rockfall was and I also want another (probably last) shot at the Menopause FA.

 

How many times would that be for each? For myself, I think there is room for both ways in the world.

 

For me it's not a matter of there being room for both ways in the world; it's a matter of one way is antithetically driven more by group entertainment and social acknowledgment needs which unavoidably come at the expense of rock. The incursion of those [suburban] requirements into alpine settings is even more disturbing than the insatiable drive to bolt every rock within two hours of every major metropolitan city and the increasing pressure to dumb down existing routes by retrobolting. If it weren't for the insatiable aspect of 'the other way' then I'd have no problem with it. As it is, I just find it sad and am glad I'm old as the encroachment and degradation is only going to get worse.

 

In the end, I personally go climbing to ditch the world and hordes around me, not to join them at outdoor gyms. One of the remarkable things I noticed in my time in Scandinavia was the fact that in the summer everyone decamped from the cities and moved en masse to these massive sprawling campgrounds where they were way tighter and even more clusterfucked than they were downtown. Go figure. It's human nature I guess, but not something I care to be any part of at all - it's just not why I climb and in general you're not going to find me doing anything to drive or encourage 'community', 'popularity' or crowding. I'm more into protecting the "classic" nature of what trad climbs we have locally, and particularly at Beacon which is more or less a trad oasis in an ocean of sport climbing.

[kukuzka1]

requirements into alpine settings is even more disturbing than the insatiable drive to bolt every rock within two hours of every major metropolitan city and the increasing pressure to dumb down existing routes by retrobolting. If it weren't for the insatiable aspect of 'the other way' then I'd have no problem with it. As it is, I just find it sad and am glad I'm old as the encroachment and degradation is only going to get worse.

 

the fact that we as climbers cannot regulate ourselves for creating these shopping mall,at all costs, routes and the desire for achieving "route setting" glory , I believe will not go unnoticed if they keep coming. the government will make more rules and regulate for us. leave no trace is not just for campers and hikers, it should be a climbers goal as well. and yes sperry basin is not Chamonix, but I do believe it is in the mountains. I am sure the FA team are cool guys, this is nothing personal, I just think is bad form. that's all Edited October 10, 2015 by kukuzka1

[Pete_H]

If we’re being honest, ground-up first ascensionists value their own experience more highly than that of climbers who may follow them. Occasionally, ground-up routes become classics, but that’s very unusual. Many are rarely climbed and others are unrepeated.

 

The bullshit meter is redlining on this one.

 

Rad's assessment seems pretty right on to me. I can think of many many ground up "adventure" routes that have been done in the last fifteen years or so and the only ones that I know that get repeated are Valkyrie and Acid Baby.

 

I'm stoked that Rad has put forth the effort to develop routes like tbis. I think it's great for climbers to have more options and obviously there's plenty of adventure climbing out there for those seeking it.

 

 

[kukuzka1]

So there is another rap-bolted route above the mile high club? I remember after the IB BS some saying that they doubt more routes will be done in this style. But soon there will be more and more. I dont wanna beat a dead horse but its a slippery slope we are going down.

Edited April 17, 2018 by kukuzka1

[johnjayson]

When i travelled to MHC , it was full of people, i found it hard to climb on, but still the rewards for completing the climbing is worth it

[G-spotter]

On 11/10/2015 at 7:48 PM, Pete_H said:

 

Rad's assessment seems pretty right on to me. I can think of many many ground up "adventure" routes that have been done in the last fifteen years or so and the only ones that I know that get repeated are Valkyrie and Acid Baby.

 

I'm stoked that Rad has put forth the effort to develop routes like tbis. I think it's great for climbers to have more options and obviously there's plenty of adventure climbing out there for those seeking it.

 

 

No bolted routes up here. All routes ground-upped. Lots of climbers though

http://www.stephabegg.com/home/tripreports/britishcolumbia/nesakwatch#climb2

Edited June 8, 2018 by G-spotter

[kukuzka1]

well congradulations, youve changed over a hundred years of first ascenting styles in the cascades. hope it ends here.

[kukuzka1]

And G-spotter, I am not canadian, I live here

 

[G-spotter]

that's too bad, but it's a fixable problem.

Edited August 13, 2018 by G-spotter

[moniker]

Anyone happen to know how Doorish established Garfield's south rib and se face?