Teachers Strike

[Fairweather]

 

Maybe getting chosen last in kickball all the time just soured you in general. I dunno.

 

The vast majority of teachers I know care about their kids and their responsibilities. Your roundhouse angry generalizations indicate a distinct lack of any experience with teachers. Volunteer for a school year and then tell us about the slackers.

 

I taught for two years after graduating college with a measly 2.9 GPA, its not an exclusive job and the pay is commensurate with the work and education required. I think K-3rd grade would be a nightmare but High School was pretty easy to teach. I have friends who are 40 years old and make 60-80K with their masters degree and coaching something. The pay and bennies are public knowledge its not supposed to be a surprise to anyone that its not manufacturing or bankers wages.

I might be non-typical in my opinion because I actually love substitute teaching; push play on a DVD for $150 per day (no union dues) isn't bad extra coin on my days off and I can do it after I retire.

[Jim]

Yea. Another straw dog.

 

Some loser clown who taught for a while who thought the job meant slacking. Good ridence- was likely pushed. Who would go into such a profession and do that? Be bored outbof their skull and bore the kids. Lame, but I'm sure you can get Fox to make it a lead.

 

And somehow you managed to not include my reply - nice editing

[ivan]

I agree. They shouldn't be mutually exclusive

 

don't you think a longer school year would be a hell of a lot more efficacious than standardized testing and NCLB-induced hoops to jump through?

i seriously doubt a longer school year would do much to eliminate the notion that more testing is better, though it might dilute the amount of time spent actually testing

 

to re-iterate, i think the vast majority of teachers are okay w/ the concept of testing (standardized or not) - afterall, we test frequently ourselves (and, as students, usually did very well on such tests) - the concerns stem from: a) tests that are unrealistic in their expectations (i bet many folks would be suprised at the current SBAC test in WA - the english version, which i've done a sample of, expects 16 year olds to demonstrate reading skills that were damned challenging for a fellow w/ a near 800 SAT verbal score and reads non-fiction compulsively) b) serious judgements that are made about schools and teachers that come from these unrealistic tests and c) exactly how much time is consumed in the taking of said tests (and time lost to rote-preparation that invariably occurs when the whole process is made so paramount)

[KaskadskyjKozak]

the SBAC just got rolled out here and I am aware of it.

 

I like the idea of "accountability" - rewards for good teachers and moving the bad ones out... but fuck it seems like a nearly impossible metric to derive (who is actually good) and dependent on so much out of a teacher's controls

 

i'd prefer to see testing as just a sanity check, a way to track trends - rather than used as a heavy handed stick that refocuses teaching on doing well on the tests rather than learning...

[Choada_Boy]

WASL, NCLB,HSPE, EALRs, SBAC, Common Core, NGSS, COE, EOC, etc, etc, etc.

 

Public Education: The Failed Experiment

[genepires]

This is total bullshit, Jim. As you know, pensions typically follow a geometric curve that heavily favors the later years.

 

teachers pension compensation equation (from plan3 document)

http://www.drs.wa.gov/member/handbooks/trs/plan-3/t3hbk.pdf

 

1% x service credit years x average final compensation = monthly benefit

 

years of credit in a linear factor

final comp may be the geometric part you speak of.

http://www.k12.wa.us/safs/PUB/PER/SalAllocSchedule.pdf

 

so with a masters and 16 years of teaching, they top out at $57K. so with that equation above, the monthly pension should be $950/month.

 

I work at boeing and we just lost our pension. it was very linear in that it was based on years of work times a fixed dollar amount and no current income factor.

[genepires]

Actually, the summers are a time that teachers use to get those extra credits and higher degrees that are needed to make living wage. So if they were to work all year, when would they be able to do the state required professional development? (which they are not paid to do) sneak it in during the recess periods?

 

After work, home at 6pm, staying up until 1am, driving, lectures, library time, driving, reading, writing, and getting back up for work at 6am--like those of us in the private sector do. Like I did. Again, why do teachers think they are above the rest of us? It's truly an insulated world they have created for themselves.

 

because those times you mentioned are times they are preparing for the next day and grading yesterdays homework.

[genepires]

[

Actually looked into teaching a while back. It turns out that surrounding myself with 2.9 and under folks who push the play button on a VCR five or six times a day was a fantasy I just could not abide.

 

this is a ridiculous view of teaching. maybe you should drop into a class room today and see what is going on. There may be a few bad examples you describe, but it def not the norm.

[AlpineK]

Let's hear it for this outstanding conservative.

 

Robert Doggart Islamberg Attack

 

So let me tell you about Doggart and his deadly plan to use guns and even a machete to attack American Muslims in upstate New York. Doggart, a 63-year-old Tennessee resident, is an ordained Christian minister in the Christian National Church. In 2014, he unsuccessfully ran for Congress as an independent, espousing far right-wing views.

 

But don’t dismiss Doggart as some crazed wingnut howling at the moon. He served in the U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps, worked for 40 years in the electrical generation business, has a master’s degree and a Ph.D. from La Salle University, and claimed he had nine “committed” men working with him to carry out this attack.

[ivan]

 

Public Education: The Failed Experiment

too cynical - despite flaws, American public schools are still pumping out plenty of good citizens

[ivan]

[

Actually looked into teaching a while back. It turns out that surrounding myself with 2.9 and under folks who push the play button on a VCR five or six times a day was a fantasy I just could not abide.

 

this is a ridiculous view of teaching. maybe you should drop into a class room today and see what is going on. There may be a few bad examples you describe, but it def not the norm.

I know, like, who uses VCR's anymore?

[Jim]

Actually, the summers are a time that teachers use to get those extra credits and higher degrees that are needed to make living wage. So if they were to work all year, when would they be able to do the state required professional development? (which they are not paid to do) sneak it in during the recess periods?

 

After work, home at 6pm, staying up until 1am, driving, lectures, library time, driving, reading, writing, and getting back up for work at 6am--like those of us in the private sector do. Like I did. Again, why do teachers think they are above the rest of us? It's truly an insulated world they have created for themselves.

 

because those times you mentioned are times they are preparing for the next day and grading yesterdays homework.

 

I think FW just likes spinning out these fantasies. The reality - during the walkout yesterday my teacher spouse spent it grading - 10 hrs worth. In school at 7:10 as usual, will not leave until about 8:00 with after school meetings. More of the same

[Fairweather]

Sorry Jim, but your credibility is shot on this one. Misrepresenting facts about your wife's pension to bolster your point puts you down there with the late ttk. If you recall, he was the naval academy grad, veteran, MBA, Berkley engineer, JD law, ACLU attorney (did I miss anything?) who wasn't.

 

Well done. Dude.

[Jim]

Yawn. Having a spouse as a teacher and volunteering about 8 hrs a week in the school with parents, aids, and other volunteers I'd say I have some level of insight into what exactly goes on day-to-day in school. Hack away at the pension and 403b contributions - it is what it is dude.

 

Now - your angry insights into what teachers do every day comes from what exactly. Oh yea - the Foxy channel.

[Choada_Boy]

 

Public Education: The Failed Experiment

too cynical - despite flaws, American public schools are still pumping out plenty of good citizens

 

Not cynical at all:

 

"An experiment is an orderly procedure carried out with the goal of verifying, refuting, or establishing the validity of a hypothesis. Experiments provide insight into cause-and-effect by demonstrating what outcome occurs when a particular factor is manipulated."

 

What happens instead is that the newly elected SOPI, or congress person, gets rid of the programs and assessments of their predecessors and replaces it with their own pet ideas, regardless of any quantifiable data. Repeat, ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

[Jim]

What happens instead is that the newly elected SOPI, or congress person, gets rid of the programs and assessments of their predecessors and replaces it with their own pet ideas, regardless of any quantifiable data. Repeat, ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

 

I'd say this is one of the largest frustrations for teachers - the constantly moving guidelines. But despite these hurdles the teachers are doing remarkable work - IMO.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Public Education: The Failed Experiment

too cynical - despite flaws, American public schools are still pumping out plenty of good citizens

 

I agree it's not failed, but our results are way lower than they should/could be. I'm not blaming teachers though. I think a lot of cultural changes are making things worse (electronic distractions top that list).

 

 

[Jim]

Interesting that you bring up that subject. And again, my experience is limited to what it is - but the teachers where I volunteer have noticed a shift in the past 10 years. For instance - the mean seems to have shifted regarding the ability to write a coherent 5 page paper in middle school. Sure there were always the tails of the bell curve, but ITO the bell has moved. Today the kids can write a decent paragraph or several - but being able to string together a few big thoughts into a stepwise progression of an essay seems more challenging for them. Maybe Ivan has insights over his tenure.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Interesting that you bring up that subject. And again, my experience is limited to what it is - but the teachers where I volunteer have noticed a shift in the past 10 years. For instance - the mean seems to have shifted regarding the ability to write a coherent 5 page paper in middle school. Sure there were always the tails of the bell curve, but ITO the bell has moved. Today the kids can write a decent paragraph or several - but being able to string together a few big thoughts into a stepwise progression of an essay seems more challenging for them. Maybe Ivan has insights over his tenure.

 

My son was recently unable to finish a book he chose to read and write a report on (the Fellowship of the Ring). Just no attention span. In the end I worked it out that he could read the Old Man and the Sea instead. At 125 pages, and with very simple language I figured he could wrap that up in a couple of days. It took more like 12 and was like pulling teeth.

 

I read the entire Lord of the Rings series in 5th grade. He's in 9th. I definitely see a shift in the ability of kids to read, focus and sit still. But then again doesn't the older generation always say the younger one is lazy and lost? :0)

 

[Jim]

I'm sure someone in a restaurant upon hearing my conversation, whispers to their companion - "old fart".

 

Despite the increasing learning challenges I've hired 3 exceedingly bright ecologists over the past year who have excellent field, computer, people, and writing skills. So something good is still going on.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'm sure someone in a restaurant upon hearing my conversation, whispers to their companion - "old fart".

 

Despite the increasing learning challenges I've hired 3 exceedingly bright ecologists over the past year who have excellent field, computer, people, and writing skills. So something good is still going on.

 

In my industry we have to hire more and more folks who have immigrated because we have to. I'm not as optimistic as you about our system.

 

[Peter_Puget]

 

 

The idea that agency fees doesnt help support political activities is absurd. Anything supporting more than the marginal costs supports other activites. Further in the politicized enviroment in which we pooperate (ie one where union support of elected officials buys their freedom to break laws) the political is all pervasive.

 

again, that's simply wrong - agency shop fees go to my local union (only 400 members) b/c we're the one that actually negotiate the contract and work to ensure it's followed

 

our local union's budget doesn't cover anything traditionally considered political - it's doesn't pay for political advertising, contribute to political campaigns, tell the membership how to vote, etc. local members who want to opt-in to that action have to join WEA-PAC.

We can go one and on but my position is simply “Anything supporting more than the marginal costs supports other activities.” This seems so self-evident that further discussion is just chatter. My guess is that the fees are not less than the marginal expense resulting from a new agency teacher to the extent they are over the agency teachers subsidize the other members.

 

[Jim]

I'm sure someone in a restaurant upon hearing my conversation, whispers to their companion - "old fart".

 

Despite the increasing learning challenges I've hired 3 exceedingly bright ecologists over the past year who have excellent field, computer, people, and writing skills. So something good is still going on.

 

In my industry we have to hire more and more folks who have immigrated because we have to. I'm not as optimistic as you about our system.

 

I don't know if I'm overly optimistic - but I'm hopeful that the coming generations will gain enough job skills to be gainfully employed and help support the Social Security system as I near and enter into retirement!

[Jim]

We can go one and on but my position is simply “Anything supporting more than the marginal costs supports other activities.” This seems so self-evident that further discussion is just chatter. My guess is that the fees are not less than the marginal expense resulting from a new agency teacher to the extent they are over the agency teachers subsidize the other members.

 

Ummm, but there is no mechanism for transferring fees from the local to the state organization - so this marginal cost extension works how?

[Peter_Puget]

Well several actually -

 

1) The subsidy reduces the dues required to support the local leaving those with strong union proclivities with more money to finance political activities. This occurs even if you believe the fairy tale that there is a strong firewall between political and non political union activities.

 

2) Go back several posts and you will see the following:

 

Peter said –

 

Back then strikers:

 

1) Gave up pay

2) face politicians bought by the evil company owner

3) company production stopped

4) strikers often got their ass kicked and lost jobs

 

Today:

 

1) Dont lose pay despite breaking their contract

2) workers have paid off the elected government via campaign donations

3) production doesnt stop

4) workers go back and all is good at work

5) The lowest paid families using the school system face the highest cost of the strike

 

A post or so later Ivan appeared to agree with everything but #5. The local was voting for a “fake” strike. The strike was fake in large part due to #2 in bold above. As I mentioned earlier politics is all pervasive.