Jacob Smith Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Hello all, My friend Josh Lewis, whom I sure some of you know, was badly injured by rock fall in the Canadian Rockies last summer. All things considered he’s doing quite well, although still suffering from post-concussion issues, but his insurance is denying him coverage because the accident and his initial medical treatment occurred outside the US. Some other friends of his have put together this fundraiser to help him pay off his medical debts, which, for a student with no full time job, would be rather crippling. Anything you can contribute will be greatly appreciated Fundraiser More information on the accident and it’s aftermath can be found here Josh's trip report More info on the aftermath Quote
glassgowkiss Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Thanks for posting. This could happen to anyone climbing in Canada. Quote
AlpineK Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Thanks. Could have happened elsewhere, but I've had a couple much too close calls in the Canadian Rockies. Quote
glassgowkiss Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 What kind of shitty insurance/ healthcare system we have. It's looks like people traveling outside US, we are no longer treated equal, or as citizens of the country. An acquaintance of my had appendicitis while climbing in Squamish. He ended up having an emergency surgery, and his insurance company refused to pay any of the costs, because he was in canadian hospital. Wtf? Quote
Rad Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 Thanks. Could have happened elsewhere, but I've had a couple much too close calls in the Canadian Rockies. Insurance companies make money by denying claims. No is almost always their first response. Persistence, sometimes including suing them, is often needed to get the a just and equitable result. Quote
glassgowkiss Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 Thanks. Could have happened elsewhere, but I've had a couple much too close calls in the Canadian Rockies. Insurance companies make money by denying claims. No is almost always their first response. Persistence, sometimes including suing them, is often needed to get the a just and equitable result. Insurance companies are untouchable, when it comes to coverage outside of the US. My friend Marcus tried that. It was rejected by court, as the incident (emergency appendectomy) was not on US territory, so US court has no jurisdiction. He would have to sue them in Canada, and it was simply cost prohibitive. You would have to have very deep pockets, as no attorney will take a case like this without a hefty retainer. The only way to start addressing the issue is to raise the public awareness and start changing insurance regulation. But legal action is a no starter. Quote
Rad Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 Thanks. Could have happened elsewhere, but I've had a couple much too close calls in the Canadian Rockies. Insurance companies make money by denying claims. No is almost always their first response. Persistence, sometimes including suing them, is often needed to get the a just and equitable result. Insurance companies are untouchable, when it comes to coverage outside of the US. My friend Marcus tried that. It was rejected by court, as the incident (emergency appendectomy) was not on US territory, so US court has no jurisdiction. He would have to sue them in Canada, and it was simply cost prohibitive. You would have to have very deep pockets, as no attorney will take a case like this without a hefty retainer. The only way to start addressing the issue is to raise the public awareness and start changing insurance regulation. But legal action is a no starter. The other thing your friend, and perhaps Josh, could consider is enticing someone in a reputable media source, like the NYTimes to do an expose on this. Brand is everything to these companies, so you can hurt them by tarnishing the brand. Quote
ivan Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 what power does canada have to compell a usa citizen to pay a bill? worst i can imagine is they could refuse you entry to the country, but maybe that ain't so bad? Quote
glassgowkiss Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) what power does canada have to compell a usa citizen to pay a bill? worst i can imagine is they could refuse you entry to the country, but maybe that ain't so bad? Well, then two thirds of the best alpine climbing on the continent are no longer an option. That can also mean any international flights going through Canada (like to Europe) are also no longer an option. For a PNW climber it equals a total hardship. Ask people charged with DUI. Also can mean some limits with employment, as some firms, and companies are located in both countries. I know people working for such institutions, and if they would have travel restrictions, they no longer would even qualify for such job. A lot of IT, media, or even engineering firms would fall under that category. Edited February 11, 2015 by glassgowkiss Quote
Jacob Smith Posted February 11, 2015 Author Posted February 11, 2015 what power does canada have to compell a usa citizen to pay a bill? worst i can imagine is they could refuse you entry to the country, but maybe that ain't so bad? I believe the hospital was threatening to hire a collection agency to go after Josh. There was a small part of me that wanted him to wait a couple months before asking for help because I was was morbidly curious to see what would happen if such an agency went after somebody who had no job and no assets. And banning him from Canada is indeed what would happen, or maybe he would just be subject to arrest if he ever tried. No Squamish, no Canadian Rockies, no Bugaboos... I'd almost rather be banned from the US. Quote
Jacob Smith Posted February 11, 2015 Author Posted February 11, 2015 I actually had to go to the hospital in canada a couple years ago when I had a bad reaction to a yellowjacket sting, after a fair amount of harassment we got our insurance to pay for it, but that was just an emergency room visit and all they did was give me some pills and assure me that my throat wasn't about to close up, because they are not for-profit institutions like in the US it wasn't more than a couple hundred dollars. The whole notion of for-profit healthcare has always weirded the shit out of me, like I know doctors deserve a good wage, they have to go to school forever and i can't imagine a more stressful job, but every time I see a tv add for a hospital i just cringe. no one should benefit from someone else's misfortune (of course that's also the reason I don't believe in capitalism, so it's not like this philosophy is going anywhere). Quote
glassgowkiss Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 BTW, for all of you biking type. If you need to go to ER in Whistler or Squamish for a bike injury, you will have to leave your bike for collateral, if your balance is not paid at the end. Just so you don't say you were not warned. Quote
JayB Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 Very sorry to hear about Josh's predicament, but I'm glad that this information is getting out there. When we spent several months overseas and planned to spend some of our time in the outdoors doing stuff that might put us in a hospital, it seemed worth investing lots of hours in finding travel medical insurance that would cover emergency care if we got injured climbing, and medical evacuation insurance to fly us to a US hospital once we were stabilized enough to travel. I've never considered bothering with that for weekend trips to Canada since you'd spend almost as long searching and filling out forms as you would climbing, but I'll have to look into this a bit more and figure out if that's something I'll have to do in the future. Quote
ivan Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 . No Squamish, no Canadian Rockies, no Bugaboos... I'd almost rather be banned from the US. meh. it's a big world and a mighty big country we live in to boot. i bet josh, once recovered, could find plenty of other places to spank the climbing monkey. Quote
ivan Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 canada's probably worth scrounging the 11K$ for though if i got busted up in belize, however... Quote
JasonG Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 Jay- What did you find was the best option? Josh's accident has got me thinking.... Quote
glassgowkiss Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 I just wanted to remind people here is not to get sidetracked, but help Josh with $$$ donation. Even if all the readers would donate $5, it would amount to a pretty good sum to put a dent into repayment. Quote
diepj Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Double check your own existing coverages before you go too far. My insurance travels to Canada for emergency procedures/situations. Also, if you are a member of AAC and some other clubs, mountain rescue insurance may be included. I'm not saying you won't have gaps, but check them out first. There is more discussion on the NW hikers thread, but Josh was on Medicaid which would have covered him in BC, but not in Alberta (No idea why...) Since he ended up hospitalized just over some arbitrary coverage border he was out of luck. It does sound like all appeals were exhausted before kicking into fundraising mode... Heal well JL!! Quote
JayB Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Bob: That's a worthwile point, but the longer the thread stays active the more folks will see it so as long as the topics stay on something that's at least peripherally related I think a bit of thread drift will help rather than hurt. Jason: I have an inbox stretching back to infinity, so I was able to find the actual policies. The medical coverage was through IMG, but after doing a quick search it looks like there are at least a couple of other companies that offer something similar. I was just looking for something that a) didn't specifically exclude the stuff that we were most likely to get hurt doing and b) had enough coverage to cover at least 4-5 days of hospitalization and c) didn't cost a fortune. It "worked" in that I wasn't worried about what would happen if one of us was briefly hospitalized, but my only interaction with them involved filing out a form and sending them a check, so I'm not sure how they compare vs other companies. http://www.imglobal.com/en/img-insurance/adventure-sports-insurance/patriot-adventure-travel-medical-insurance.aspx I bought the medical evacuation coverage through medjet assist. There was a bit more info available from folks who actually had to use the service, since having a heart attack on a Cruize to Belize is way more common than, say, shattering your pelvis after taking a grounder in Tasmania - so from what I read it seemed like they were legit. https://medjetassist.com/ Probably total overkill for a weekend in Squamish, but might be worth looking into for trips that are longer/farther afield. Quote
Rad Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 I interviewed Mike Libecki a few years back about what he does when on foreign adventures. Part of his safety net was https://globalrescue.com/ Quote
jon Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 What kind of shitty insurance/ healthcare system we have. It's looks like people traveling outside US, we are no longer treated equal, or as citizens of the country. An acquaintance of my had appendicitis while climbing in Squamish. He ended up having an emergency surgery, and his insurance company refused to pay any of the costs, because he was in canadian hospital. Wtf? To be fair, I don't think most countries medical systems cover you outside your home country. In BC you are not covered and need travel insurance. International coverage depends on the policy you have. Those lucky enough to have coverage with reputable plans typically have international coverage. I always did, but I also got supplemental insurance through someone like USAA or AAA. Quote
glassgowkiss Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 To be fair, most of EU countries cover your medical expenses while traveling abroad, at least traveling to neighboring countries in Europe. There is a moral difference- most of civilized world treats healthcare and healthcare as a basic human right, while US treats it as an access privilege. US is still in savage stage as far as healthcare goes. BTW, DAV and OAV will cover any medical costs and medical transport, plus the costs of any rescue under 6000m ANYWHERE on the planet. Quote
trainwreck Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 As a Canadian, I need medical insurance for anything longer than a weekend trip to Mount Baker. I imagine its the same coming to Canada. Quote
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