Ferguson in Context

[tvashtarkatena]

I don't think he gets the concept.

[glassgowkiss]

Acknowledging it's existence is a prerequisite to solving a problem. Let's dispense with bullshit theory about a "few bad apples" in police force across the country. To "protect and serve" should no longer be a motto, and actually so called "good cops" are the minority. Vast majority of cops are abusive assholes, seeking power trips, and control freaks. It goes across the board starting with cops lurking while catching speeders. Public safety my ass, there is no real evidence of co-relation between number of fatalities with speeds below 75mph or less (or 120km/h). So this whole nonsense of lurking around the corners in urban areas is nothing but revenue scam (yeah, because police departments have direct financial benefits from the fines). e following steps of the total escalation of the problem.

 

Do you speak from experience or just inference from what you've seen in the media? I work with cops every day in the municipality where I work and in my experience they are reasonable, normal guys and gals trying to do the right thing in a very difficult profession. Sure some of them are assholes, but isn't that to be expected in every profession? Maybe the jurisdiction where I work is different than every other one in the country, but I kind of doubt it.

 

Don't like the drug war or other policy? Talk to your legislator. Cops don't make law, they just do their best to enforce it.

 

Another example: you know who hates traffic stop quotas more than you? Cops. Again, they are told by the powers that be to issue a certain number of fines. You think they like being the assholes who have to do it?

Well, the powers tell them to issue a ticket, and they obey. WTF? worked out great for the Jews in WWII. The problem with your line of reasoning is your head is so deep in the ass of the system, you don't even see it.

You asked if I have personal experience- yes I do. I was stopped four times for no fucking reason whatsoever. First time was in Bend, when I decided to go a couple of blocks after my knee surgery. Of course I was limping with a knee size of a water melon, and a cruiser drove onto a sidewalk, blocked my path, and a cop asked me for an ID. WTF!

Second, about 9 years ago here in Bellingham. I saw I had a message on my phone, so I pulled on the shoulder, completely off the pavement, parked my car, listened to the message, made some notes. I look up, and there are lights behind my car. My car was not even running. He asks me for an ID and asks me what was I doing? WTF. I wanted to tell him that this is none of his fucking business.

Third, I was driving through Leavenworth at 11 at night a few years back. I was within speed limit, got pulled over for no reason whatsoever and asked if I had anything to drink. Again- wtf?

Saved the best for last-Reno 1991. I was in handcuffs in the back of a cruiser charged with grand theft auto. Finally after muppets sorted it out did not even say sorry. Neither make, color, or license plate matched the stolen car. After wasting almost 2 hours of my life, they did not even say sorry for mistake. When I called the station and asked for a supervisor, after being on hold for a while, I was told that probably they had reasons. I am sure they had. Incompetence and stupidity would be probably on the top of the list.

Here is good read for you, yes I agree with the writer 100%

system is not broken

[tvashtarkatena]

While driving back from some other planet down south last year, Big Man and I pulled over alongside a plowed field to crash at about 4 am - BAM = flashing lights outta nowhere. The sheriff was a bit of a dick at first, but he heard our sad story and spotted us some extra gas (fuck me, that is one gasless stretch on I DEE HO's southern border - not the best situ for an 8.5 gal toy car tank). I've got to say I wasn't in my perkiest mood at that hour either.

 

It beat waking up in the middle of the night with a 12 gauge in my face (Dominican Coast Guard wake up call). That guy turned out to be OK too, in the end. Funny thing was, his boat looked an awful lot like a mule. Thank dog I took the trouble to get my passport properly stamped that time.

[Pete_H]

Issuing speeding tickets = gassing the Jews ? Not sure I can follow you on that one.

 

Look, everyone, including me, has asshole cop stories. Not that you deserved the treatment you got in any of your stories, but I'm guessing the cops just didn't see though your gruff exterior to your true natural sunny disposition.

[JayB]

What is the tangible effect of this crusade ... going to be, in your estimation?

if i could see the future i probably wouldn't be working anymore

 

who knows? what bostonian knew in 1770 that the violent incident they'd just witnessed would result in a such a sea-change 5 years later? certainly many of those folks yelling in the street today would hope, as did the sons of liberty, for a radical change in the status quo. obviously, like the said sons, there's those among them willing to do more than just shout.

 

playing the odds though, i imagine this incident will be just another drop in the ocean and that the Next Big Thing, as sam says, will yank the public's attention elsewhere, leaving hte whole thing to brew and fester and molder some more. if the incident does no more than encourage the cop body-camera craze, i suppose that's at least something positive.

 

I should have been clearer.

 

What tangible impact do you expect any post-Ferguson policing reforms, such as body cameras, to have on the number of black victims of murder, assault, robbery every year? How about the high-school dropout rate, percentage of two-parent households, etc, etc, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

Per the argument from statistical proportionality, the vastly disproportionate rate at which men are arrested and imprisoned relative to women in every conceivable category of criminal behavior is necessarily evidence of a systematic hostility to men embedded in every facet of our criminal justice system, no?

[tvashtarkatena]

he doesnt get the concept, either.

[Pete_H]

Then you should explain in better. Your statistics, by themselves, can be interpreted multiple ways, which has been pointed out a couple times in this thread.

[ivan]

What tangible impact do you expect any post-Ferguson policing reforms, such as body cameras, to have on the number of black victims of murder, assault, robbery every year? How about the high-school dropout rate, percentage of two-parent households, etc, etc, etc.

 

 

 

 

you know full well those things are far more driven by economic conditions than policing reform, but then the point of such reform is to reduce the # of folks cops kill unnecessarily, not to make crime itself go away.

[Jim]

Then you should explain in better. Your statistics, by themselves, can be interpreted multiple ways, which has been pointed out a couple times in this thread.

 

Having been seeped in non-parametric analysis the last couple weeks, here's a couple considerations:

 

1) the basic tenet that correlation does not necessarily infer causation. The production of teflon over the past decade correlates with a significant reduction in death by colon cancer; string cheese consumption parallels an increase in sunspot activity over the past 2 years; or arrests for herion use indicates its preference over all other drugs (the last one, no - more due to the clamp down on oxycontin).

 

2) The first defense of weak writing is - "you are too stupid to grasp this complicated subject".

[Fairweather]

Good post. We could have an interesting conversation about your first point as it relates to Karl Popper, CO2, etc. But that's another day.

 

As for your second point, well, the site pontificator seems to think nonsense morphs into statistic if repeated often enough. Rote also seems to play an important role as the air escapes the balloon. In any event, I wouldn't put much cred in his resurrected "we/aclu" meme. This particular poster has built a rather, to put it kindly, padded resume here.

[Jim]

And just for clarity, in case the next post is a character assassination - typically the second defense, is that I'm not saying the assertion is not true. You just can't cite such a statistic, particularly in the complex world of social science analysis, cross your arms, and declare an end of the discussion.

 

Well, you can, but.....

[tvashtarkatena]

My intent was to steer the discussion towards a focus on long term racial disparity in our criminal justice system. Thanks for playing along.

 

The Milwaukee is the most discriminatory jurisdiction in the country claim was made by Jeff Robinson, one of the most distinguished civil rights attorneys in the US, during the ACLU's Bill of Rights awards dinner this year. Jeff was a fellow ACLU board member for a year, before his many other duties called him away.

 

Jeff Robinson's credentials

 

Blacks are 21 times more likely to be shot by police than whites

 

Racial disparity in our CJS, per Farrakhan v Gregoire 9th Circuit (2010))

 

Plaintiffs (who won the appeal *sic*) relied heavily on the reports

of two expert witnesses: Dr. Robert Crutchfield, a Professor

of Sociology at the University of Washington, who has “conducted

extensive research on racial disparity in the Washington

State criminal justice system,” Crutchfield Report at 9,

and Dr. Katherine Beckett, an Associate Professor of Sociology

at the University of Washington, who “conducted a 2004

study entitled Race and Drug Law Enforcement in Seattle,”

 

Crutchfield and Beckett's evidence, as presented during Farrakhan vs Gregoire 9th Circuit (2010)

 

One excerpt from Crutchfield’s evidence:

 

”…an African American in Washington State was slightly more than nine times more likely to be in prison than a white American in the state. But, the ratio ofblack to white arrest for violent offenses was only 3.72 to 1. This means that substantially more than one half of Washington State’s racial disproportionality cannot be explained by higher levels of criminal involvement as measured by violent crime arrest statistics.”

 

This will help interested parties scratch the surface. There are a lot more supporting materials of course. Big issue. Get your wonk on!

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Marijuana arrests account for a quarter of all arrests. If blacks don't smoke any more weed than whites (they don't), why are they being arrested for marijuana at three times the rate whites are again?

 

Hmmm. Maybe they smoke more aggressively or something?

 

The easiest way not to get arrested for dope is to not possess said dope. It's not a hard concept...

 

When a petty crime like possession of a joint, or illegally obtained cigarettes leads to death, there is something profoundly fucking wrong - and it's not all on the suspect.

 

Escalation involves two parties, and cops seems all the more willing to take things to extremes.

 

That being said, and this being common knowledge that shit can get out of hand quickly, why the fuck someone would not obey a cops orders to the letter, immediately and without argument, is beyond me.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

It's possible that the cop aggressively pulled Brown into the car, as some witnesses have claimed, resulting in a reflexive defensive response.

 

But none of us were there, and even if we were, or even if we were one of the two involved in the altercation - confusion happens, particularly when fear takes over.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

It's possible that the cop aggressively pulled Brown into the car, as some witnesses have claimed, resulting in a reflexive defensive response.

 

But none of us were there, and even if we were, or even if we were one of the two involved in the altercation - confusion happens, particularly when fear takes over.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/us/cleveland-justice-department-police-excessive-force/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

*sigh*

 

Kicking handcuffed people in the head...

[tvashtarkatena]

Well, at least we're finally talking about this nationwide problem in earnest.

 

I gave a talk at Garfield High this morning to about 100 students (not in this topic). Ferguson came up while conversing with the student organizers. According to them, it's a hot topic around the school - and most of the students do not share many of the sentiments presented here.

 

Just a data point.

 

One that gives me a lot of hope for the future, although they will have the killer robots to contend with.

 

Garfield is an amazing school, BTW. Their theater/arts/music program is awesome, and they've got the facilities to do it up right.

[dougd]

When a petty crime like possession of a joint, or illegally obtained cigarettes leads to death, there is something profoundly fucking wrong - and it's not all on the suspect.

 

Only thing missing is the "and nobody gets punished" part. +1 other than that.

 

d

[Pete_H]

It's possible that the cop aggressively pulled Brown into the car, as some witnesses have claimed, resulting in a reflexive defensive response.

 

But none of us were there, and even if we were, or even if we were one of the two involved in the altercation - confusion happens, particularly when fear takes over.

 

Yeah I'm sure Darren Wilson's career consisted of him just driving around all day and finding innocent black people to pull into his squad car and assault. That makes lots and lots of sense.

 

You don't have to be wrong about other police shootings or systemic injustice in our American experiment. But you are wrong about Ferguson, despite the collective wisdom of the student body at Garfield high school.

[tvashtarkatena]

You're the expert.

 

The strawmen don't help your case, though.

 

By all accounts Brown was neither near nor attacking Wilson when Wilson finally gunned him down with multiple shots. Many witnesses stated he had his hands up. Several claim that he shot Brown while Brown was attempting to flee. Some of us would argue that Wilson's actions may have been a tad excessive, to say the least.

 

I wouldn't dis high school students too much. I've found many of them to be a good deal more intelligent and considered than some of youz guyz. Way less ideologically rigid, too. Glad to have 'em taking the reigns of a world we fucked the living shit out of without lube or saying "I love you".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

When a petty crime like possession of a joint, or illegally obtained cigarettes leads to death, there is something profoundly fucking wrong - and it's not all on the suspect.

 

Only thing missing is the "and nobody gets punished" part. +1 other than that.

 

d

 

Oh, the officer is being "punished". That guy's life is ruined - at least for some time going forward. He's currently in focus of a media firestorm. The stress this will put on him and his life is punishment.

 

Is it the right punishment? Legal, involving an indictment and possible imprisonment, dunno.

 

Will any amount of punishment bring back the dead man and give solace to his family? Would a lengthy trial with an innocent verdict be satisfactory or just cause more pain all around? Would the guy losing his job and never being allowed to work again in law enforcement be a good 'punishment'?

 

I'd just rather see these things not happen. Trying this cop seems like treating a symptom - a bandaid. Having zero such incidents is unlikely but how about reducing them to a number where they are a rarity and not something that pops up as frequently as they do?

 

[Jim]

You don't have to be wrong about other police shootings or systemic injustice in our American experiment. But you are wrong about Ferguson, despite the collective wisdom of the student body at Garfield high school.

 

Tend to agree with the general assessment. Interesting article in, of all places, The Nation.

 

Just the facts, please

[KaskadskyjKozak]

You don't have to be wrong about other police shootings or systemic injustice in our American experiment. But you are wrong about Ferguson, despite the collective wisdom of the student body at Garfield high school.

 

Tend to agree with the general assessment. Interesting article in, of all places, The Nation.

 

Just the facts, please

 

What we should focus on:

 

"If Wilson himself had been better trained, he would not have killed Brown. As Yishai Schwartz has argued, there are a host of reforms that need to be made to police departments as well as changes in the law. "

 

Treat the illness not the symptom, and stay away from the racially divisive and destructive rhetoric.

[Jim]

When I first read the news coming out about this incident I thought - man, if this cop doesn't go to jail then something is wrong. My mistake, of course, was paying attention to the media blitz on this one. Holy crap.

 

Lo and behold, it ain't what it was purported to be.

 

The NYC one, however is a different deal. That cop is going to be indicted on federal civil right charges and rightly so.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The NYC one, however is a different deal. That cop is going to be indicted on federal civil right charges and rightly so.

 

That one is so fucked up. What happened to the guy in NYC is inhuman. Nobody should be beaten down this way. That video is just plain repulsive.

 

I remember when the Rodney King beating occurred - a similarly disturbing event. I was visiting my grandfather and it was on TV. I expected him to say something a white guy from his generation living in a rural area might say... something about "that racial-epithet got what he deserved...". Nope. He said "if someone beat me down like that, like a dog... when I healed up... I would hunt him down."