Cam hooks at Index

[manninjo]

While doing some aiding at Index last month, someone mentioned they did not use cam hooks at Index because the rock is not a true granite, rather a granodiorite (sic?), and therefore using cam hooks could potentially alter the free climbs (like City Park, Town Crier, etc). Cam hooks seem especially solid and useful at Index for clean aid. Is using cam hooks at Index something to be concerned about?

[ivan]

sure doesn't seem so to me, but then again i really hate cam hooks and try never to use them

[Riley81]

Cam hooks work great at Index and you should use them whenever and wherever you can and feel like it. They are generally less harmful to rocks then placing say a #2-3 LA, which is a pin scar size that cam hooks generally fit well in. (unless it's sandstone, then just looking at the rock makes it crumble.)

 

[tvashtarkatena]

That's a new one.

 

You might ask those concerned to show some data indicating that

 

a) cam hooks have damaged the rock at Index and

b) why the strength of the rock at Index is of concern

 

Half Dome, the Sentinel, and Cathedral Peak are also granodiorite. The strength of decent granitic rocks (and Index is just about as good as it gets) depends far more on their history of weathering and aspect than what types and percentages of feldspar they contain. There's great granite and crap granite on El Cap, and great granodiorate and crap granodiorite on Half Dome.

 

There's not enough difference between great granite or great granodiorite to matter to climbers.

 

Bring your pal on down to Zion. It'll take his mind off his granodiorite worries right quick.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2014 by tvashtarkatena

[keenwesh]

I've blown 2 camhooks at index when the rock around the crack failed, so there's that.

 

I really am not a fan of camhooks, the majority of aid falls I've taken have been when they popped. I've realized that I generally only use them on C1 and C2, where the terrain is easy enough that I'm going for speed and generally putting less effort into placements than I would on a A3+ pitch. With my weight (200 in my birthday suit, so more like 250 with a full el cap nailing rack) they're under a ton of tension, hearing a PING! as I suddenly accelerate downwards is pretty common. Only route that I've used them much is Zodiac, and that was just for the Nipple pitch. Air would be huge on that thing but clean.

 

If you're a lightweight little guy like Mark Hugedong use them everywhere.

[tvashtarkatena]

"I really am not a fan of camhooks,"

 

Who is?

[Giles]

I really am not a fan of camhooks, the majority of aid falls I've taken have been when they popped.

 

Hahaha I remember when you first started to aid climb a lot you said to me "Cam hooks are the best thing ever."

[num1mc]

While doing some aiding at Index last month, someone mentioned they did not use cam hooks at Index because the rock is not a true granite, rather a granodiorite (sic?), and therefore using cam hooks could potentially alter the free climbs (like City Park, Town Crier, etc).

 

The relative ratios of potassium, calcium and sodium are all that differentiates granite from granodiorite. While that may be of interest to a petrologist, it makes no difference to a cam hooker

[G-spotter]

they did not use cam hooks at Index because the rock is not a true granite, rather a granodiorite (sic?), and therefore using cam hooks could potentially alter the free climbs

 

 

bullshit pseudoscience geology.

 

"true granite" is vanishingly rare. granodiorite and quartzdiorite and quartz monzonite and tonalite are common as dirt. makes no difference, hook wise.

 

also why are you cam hooking on a free climb anyway?

and why would cam hooking on an aid climb alter the free climb?

so much for logic.

Edited November 1, 2014 by G-spotter

[DPS]

A geologist and sometime climber I worked with told me the only true granite in Washington State is at Washington Pass. Index, Leavenworth, the Enchantments, the Stuart Range, and Darrington are all composed of white grandiorite.

 

Just to add to the discussion, I really like cam hooks.

Edited November 1, 2014 by DPS

[Rafe1234]

A geologist and sometime climber I worked with told me the only true granite in Washington State is at Washington Pass. Index, Leavenworth, the Enchantments, the Stuart Range, and Darrington are all composed of white grandiorite.

 

Just to add to the discussion, I really like cam hooks.

 

Sweet, just ordered a new cam hook set for Wa Pass... Just gotta make sure to keep it away from that uber choss pile over at Index..

[DPS]

A geologist and sometime climber I worked with told me the only true granite in Washington State is at Washington Pass. Index, Leavenworth, the Enchantments, the Stuart Range, and Darrington are all composed of white grandiorite.

 

Just to add to the discussion, I really like cam hooks.

 

Sweet, just ordered a new cam hook set for Wa Pass... Just gotta make sure to keep it away from that uber choss pile over at Index..

I climbed the Early Winters Couloir route in fantastic conditions; beautiful water ice, fun mixed cruxes topped off with a 20 foot cornice. To surmount the cornice I aided the left hand wall and nailed a flake with a KB. The flake broke off and landed in my lap. I nailed the stump, stepped onto the KB which rotated 90 degrees to face straight down but held. Awesome rock.

 

Edited November 1, 2014 by DPS

[tvashtarkatena]

grano "Die? Oh, right."

 

Granodiorite's fine. Just stay away tonalite - that shit'll kill ya.

 

Alpha particle X-ray spectrometer - The 11th Essential.

[G-spotter]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/06/130612-yosemite-el-capitan-rock-mapped/

 

The "only camhooks on granite" theory would put most of the east face off limits...

[Pete_H]

Even if cam hooks do cause deterioration of index's rock, I would say please go ahead and use them anyway. Maybe then one day I can free City Park.

[matt_warfield]

I'm glad I only climb at Vantage where cam hooks might pull down a whole pillar. But then so might cams. Or nuts. Granite is overrated. And aid is, well, aid.

[manninjo]

Gosh, gear quality at Vantage, that's a whole other can of worms... rock quality at Index, there should be no question.

 

It's surprising to hear cam hooks have failed on people there. I'm more of a free climber and aid is aid, but given the choice between pulling on plastic for another consecutive day or being outside on a sunny day after a rain storm, I'd rather ascend some cracks that might be too wet to jam but take cams and nuts and maybe cam hooks just fine. Really, cam hooks do seem like an efficiency/convenience thing, it'd be hard to find a section of rock that a stopper or slider nut wouldn't work in as well. Doesn't seem like there is too strong of an anti-cam hook sentiment, maybe just need to be cognizant of potential damage.

 

I was also thinking about getting some nailing practice in at the crag. Many 5.11 cracks seem to be about #3/4 lost arrow size?

 

kidding!

[stillcrankin]

Love these things…..

 

They can turn A3 into A1 (until they fail, then they turn A3 into A-see-ya-later).

Edited November 23, 2014 by stillcrankin