26 dead in Connecticut elementary school

[murraysovereign]

haven't thought about the whole gun laws in the ol' US thing lately, but this whole killing phenomenon ain't a particularly US humanoid only thing:

 

link

 

Interesting, if you scroll down that list and check the stats on "Grenade Amok" killing sprees, the United States doesn't appear on the list anywhere. Not once. It's almost as if there's some sort of link between availability of grenades, and grenades being used to kill people. Or maybe it just indicates that if those countries on the list had more liberal grenade-ownership laws, they'd have fewer grenade killings. Yeah - that's probably it: more grenades would make those countries safer.

[rob]

if you choose to own guns and then somebody steals them from you and uses them to commit a crime, you should totally be held responsible - to a greater or lesser degree depending on how irresponsible you were found to have been. Also, all guns sales/purchases should be registered and require a fresh background check. Even private sales.

 

This would allow private, responsible citizens to play with guns but the NRA and republicans would never allow this.

[tvashtarkatena]

I was socializing with some of the neighbors last night. Turns out Sean, six doors up the street, is from Newtown, CT.

 

Needless to say, he was pretty rattled.

[Kimmo]

so i read somewhere that switzerland and israel have more liberal gun ownership laws than the US, with a higher ownership percentage, but they have a much lower incidence of homicide.

 

i wonder how much gang-related murder drives the US stats?

 

 

[matt_warfield]

 

A mass killing in this country is often due to mental illness and we should be paying attention. It will pay many more dividends than any gun control laws. There are only about a million ticking time bombs. Nothing to worry about.

 

Mobsters, gangsters, robbers, and just plain mad people deal with small numbers unless religion and a different country is involved.

 

No offense to anyone is intended.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2012 by matt_warfield

[tvashtarkatena]

Speaking of crazy...

 

No. Switzerland does not have liberal gun ownership laws. Citizen militia is issued weapons and the owner had better not open the sealed ammo boxes unless the country is attacked.

 

This is a common NRA spawned lie. Thanks your for being their parrot.

[Kimmo]

Speaking of crazy...

 

No. Switzerland does not have liberal gun ownership laws. Citizen militia is issued weapons and the owner had better not open the sealed ammo boxes unless the country is attacked.

 

This is a common NRA spawned lie. Thanks your for being their parrot.

 

you might be confusing military conscripts with citizens. while conscripts have tight controls placed on their issued gun use, the general population does not seem to have the same degree of restrictions.

 

46 guns per 100 humanoids in swizzyland, with 10% of the population enjoying target shooting as a regular pastime.

 

but they pay a price for this liberal proliferation of guns:

 

swizzy and finland vie for the top gun murder rates in europe; no coincidence there.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm not confusing anything, but you're mixing up your military/private gun ownership stats in Sweiss.

 

Also, you're apparently not aware of how restrictive private gun ownership is in that country as compared to the US. Night and day. Look it up.

 

Finally, Switzerland is also having the gun control debate due to gun violence. They don't have as much as we do, but its still enough to make even their restrictive gun ownership policies controversial.

[glassgowkiss]

One more thing pops into my mind. NRA propaganda of "law abiding" gun owners is complete load of shit. As the matter of fact gun law violations happen in thousands every single day, with almost zero enforcement. We are talking about shooting of the road signs- anyone driving on US roads can see that clearly. We are also not talking now and then. As the matter of fact states are forced to spend quite large sums on replacing signs destroyed by these "law abiding" fucks. In Oregon, between Bend and Redmond, after placing a decoy deer, over 100 citations were issued for shooting within 300 feet from the highway in 48 hour period. As the matter of fact, the reason police was forced to stop catching people is simple- the decoy was destroyed in 2 days!

Now, if you have 2 DUI's- you usually lose your license and can't legally drive, third time you usually do jail time. So why aren't people operating guns licensed is beyond me. Simple licensing of gun owners would allow to have a legal way to prevent these cases from happening.

[tvashtarkatena]

My home defense plan is a 50 lbs solid steel sculpture with 3 spikes sticking out of it. Just toss it down the stairs at an intruder and plan on lots and lots of plaster/carpentry repair afterwards.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Yes, she lived in a house with a mentally disturbed son? She probably should not have had guns and body armor. Or at the very least they should have been secured. I wonder how hard it was for him to get at the guns. I promise you my kids could not get their hands on MY guns. Even if they killed me first.

 

Everything I read so far has been that the boy was intelligent, maybe autistic but not mentally disturbed, and not showing warning signs. Have you read to the contrary?

 

The mother may have done all she could to keep the kid away from the guns. Not much you can do when you are dead, of course. Have you read to the contrary, that she provided him convenient access? How would this be prevented by legislation btw? Maybe the nanny state could install cameras in homes of people with a mentally disturbed inhabitant?

[rob]

Actually, most Swiss militia members aren't even issued ammo anymore.

Edited December 16, 2012 by rob

[rob]

 

Yes, she lived in a house with a mentally disturbed son? She probably should not have had guns and body armor. Or at the very least they should have been secured. I wonder how hard it was for him to get at the guns. I promise you my kids could not get their hands on MY guns. Even if they killed me first.

 

Everything I read so far has been that the boy was intelligent, maybe autistic but not mentally disturbed, and not showing warning signs. Have you read to the contrary?

 

The mother may have done all she could to keep the kid away from the guns. Not much you can do when you are dead, of course. Have you read to the contrary, that she provided him convenient access? How would this be prevented by legislation btw? Maybe the nanny state could install cameras in homes of people with a mentally disturbed inhabitant?

 

Yes, I've read much about him being obviously mentally disturbed (although smart) including stories of him having a possible personality disorder. There is obviously no doubt now that he was mentally ill, right? I mean, considering what he did. Are you saying he was a normal kid and nobody saw it coming? That isnt what I've been reading.

 

Also, he apparently killed his mother with her own gun, so its not like he grabbed the keys to the gun safe from her pocket, right?. It's a good thing she kept those guns and body armor handy, though, right? You know, for self defense.

 

That said, if you own a gun, it's your responsibility to make sure it is secure. Period. She failed at that, and many people died. Unless he welded his way through a steel gun safe after killing her with his bare hands, I have a hard time ignoring those facts. Also, why did she need handguns, and bushmaster and body armor? Obviously, in hindsight, it wasn't such a good idea. What was her justification for taking on that kind of responsibility? It sounds like she wasn't up to the task.

[rob]

Turns out his mom was a survivalist. The boy has been described by neighbors as there being "something off" about him. No friends, no social network, loner in school...just another average kid with access to assault weapons and body armor. No big.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559442/the-brief-enigmatic-life-of-mass-murderer-adam-lanza/

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Turns out his mom was a survivalist. The boy has been described by neighbors as there being "something off" about him. No friends, no social network, loner in school...just another average kid with access to assault weapons and body armor. No big.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559442/the-brief-enigmatic-life-of-mass-murderer-adam-lanza/

 

Your assertions don't even jibe with your link! LOL The fact is they are still trying to understand what happened here and it's no where near as clear cut as you claim.

 

 

[glassgowkiss]

Turns out his mom was a survivalist. The boy has been described by neighbors as there being "something off" about him. No friends, no social network, loner in school...just another average kid with access to assault weapons and body armor. No big.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559442/the-brief-enigmatic-life-of-mass-murderer-adam-lanza/

 

Your assertions don't even jibe with your link! LOL The fact is they are still trying to understand what happened here and it's no where near as clear cut as you claim.

 

Well, the problem is that yours and other right wingnut assertions don't give with reality of life. Case and point was last election. You guys have your heads up your ass so deep, you can't even see the reality on the ground. Your "arguments" boil down to a bunch of pointless drivel you overheard on Fox- same source that predicted landslide for Romney.

[rob]

Turns out his mom was a survivalist. The boy has been described by neighbors as there being "something off" about him. No friends, no social network, loner in school...just another average kid with access to assault weapons and body armor. No big.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559442/the-brief-enigmatic-life-of-mass-murderer-adam-lanza/

 

Your assertions don't even jibe with your link! LOL The fact is they are still trying to understand what happened here and it's no where near as clear cut as you claim.

 

 

You're right, there was no way this could have been prevented. W should arm school teachers, that's the only thing that could have helped.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

You're right, there was no way this could have been prevented. W should arm school teachers, that's the only thing that could have helped.

 

You're really challenged aren't you Rob? I mean shit, jumping to conclusions everywhere, making up statements others never made...

 

Here's a little meat for you - I support the ban on assault rifles. Problem is it appears this guy used handguns and the rifle was left in the car. I'd be for limitations on handguns with large magazines, automatic firing, etc. I'd be for limiting how many such handguns you can own (how about one if any?), and I'd be for strict monitoring/registration for such weapons, a national database for owners managed by the gov't, rules about getting permits for them renewable on an annual basis or you forfeit your weapon, closing loopholes on private sales of such weapons, etc.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

FWIW

 

The mother was really into guns and took her son to the range on a regular basis. The kid was well trained to shoot.

 

Bottom line is that a lot of folks don't show much in the way of warning signs. Weird doesn't equal homosidal maniac, at least not most of the time.

 

The only other policy solution is to more tightly restrict gun ownership - as many other countries have successfully done, to reduce the number of guns out there and therefore the amount of gun violence. It works in many, many societies.

 

Argue all you want than gun control will do nothing, but you know that's utter bullshit, given the huge body of international data to the contrary. Yeah, better mental health care is also important, but no one can tell me that ready access to guns doesn't alter the tactical equation for folks who are about to Go Big and Not Go Home afterwards anyway. People go crazy in other countries. They just don't use assault rifles on crowds when they do it because its harder to get one.

 

I guess you could say 'fuck it, its only 26 people out of 300,000,000. Just one crime. Bummer, but not one that warrants a federal response.

 

I would argue that such a nightmare is so unspeakable that it erodes the well being of a greater part of the world community. Its too much. The incidents are too frequent and increasingly terrible. Our society, as a whole, as gone a little too insane. Long overdue federal action must be taken to address it. The majority of us who seem to be able to live secure, satsifying lives without guns demand it.

 

 

 

Not hard.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[JasonG]

I read today that ALL were killed by the AR-15, and that he shot his way in with it(CNN). And I also read today that the police haven't been able to make a link that the mom went to the range regularly (also CNN). I know that this is SPRAY and all, but this is one where the information is still evolving....

[rob]

Who cares if she went to the range, she still decided to buy assault rifles, ammunition, high mag clips and body armor, and her crazy son got his hands on them.

[JasonG]

Well, there is that.

[glassgowkiss]

There is ZERO gun enforcement, and zero interest in the enforcement. There are hundreds of bullets fired at road signs, I don't hear anyone busting them. I also don't hear states going after gun manufacturer coffers to get the signs replaced, or cover the cost related to recovery from gun violence (every state has victim compensation fund= taxpayers money). Why aren't manufactures liable of these costs is beyond me.

[glassgowkiss]

very good points

[ivan]

our nation can't summon the political will to fucking find it's car keys - i'm not holding my breathe on us pursuing a gun control policy that would do more than push around the proverbial titanic deck chairs.

 

the story d'jour kinda pisses me off - why do we suddenly give more of a crap b/c its a bunch of kids who got killed? why is it that the endless # of adults getting gunned down don't matter?