conditioning: crack vs. face climbing

[Uncle_Tricky]

After climbing mostly cracks, corners, ow, slabs and chimneys this past season, I felt pretty strong.

 

Then recently I got on some moderate sport climbs that were steep and fingery or overhanging and juggy and I realized how weak I'd become at that sort of climbing.

 

I guess I was kinda surpised by how being in shape for one did and didn't transfer into the other. And of course the physical diffs are just one part of the equasion.

 

So I was wondering about a couple things:

 

First, what are your observations about how the physical conditioning involved in crack climbing contributes to your ability to sport climb, or vice-versa?

 

Second, how and to what extent do the two compliment or differ from each other in terms of technique, strategy or whatever as you're actually climbing?

 

It seems common that most people who have done a fair amount of both trad and sport climbing can lead sport climbs at a higher grade than they can lead gear climbs. How big is the difference for you, and how has that gap evolved over time?

 

Lastly, how big a difference is there between what you can lead and what you can toprope/follow? (a couple grades, more?) How much does this vary depending on whether it's a face climb or a crack route?

[daler]

the two styles are differnet but they do compliment each other very well. Nothing like finding a no hands rest on a steep sport route that was made easy by a strong trad back ground, and often times the best way around a thin trad crux is by grabbing a crimp out on the face somewhere.

As far as differences in tr verses lead they are the same for me. As long as you are ok with taking falls I think being on the lead is easier because you are more focused and don't have the rope above you to deal with.

If the differnece is great for you ie; you tr way harder than you lead you should spend some more time on the mental training side of things.

As far as the difference in sprot verses trad: I have redpointed a full # grade harder on bolts. 13a verses 12a. Hard sports climbs are way more abundant then hard crack climbs.

 

Good topic,

 

dale

[sk]

GREAT TOPIC!!!

 

keep in mind I am not a great climber... this is how it stacks up for me:

I climb comfortably at 5.9 sport and trad = NO FALLS (most of the time;)) ON TOP ROPE

I lead comfortably at 5.7 sport

lead comfortably on a known climb 5.6/5.7 trad

I can top rope a 5.10 cack with falls/not sport though

 

I have mostly followed or top roped cracks, that is my personal preference so I feel like I climb those better. Whoever said that if you can't lead what you can top rope, than you need to work on your mental game is exactly right, because it is my head, not the inability to do moves that is in my way as far as leading trad and sport at a higher level

[kevinoregon]

There is a third style of climb that has not been mentioned. Friction face can be about as fine of climbing as there can be. I have gone whole pitches of friction without so much as one decent hand hold. I have always liked to compare friction climbing to a delicate dance. Slow careful moves as you delicately smear up the face. The skill in mastering this type of climb is in mastering your footwork.

 

Crack climbing on the other hand is mostly upper body. If a person is strong enough, he can power through the hard moves on most hard cracks even if he is not as strong in his footwork, but good footwork always makes the climbing easier.

 

Sport climbing combines the skills of both of these as there is the need for a strong upper body as well as the need for some fancy footwork in order to climb the face with style.

 

In my experience, and I have been doing this a very long time, a 11a face climb or any grade for that matter will be easier than a crack climb of equal grade mainly because you do not have to hang out on a face climb to place gear. This is also why there are not as many hard crack climbs as there are hard face climbs.

 

[jkrueger]

The first time I went to Smith two years ago I onsighted 10a sport climbs on lead. I spent this year learning to lead trad, and ended the season with a 10a onsight at Leavenworth. Then I went back to Smith, hit the main area, and found that I still lead 10a sport a whole year later.

 

I know I am more experienced, rounded, confident, and stronger than that first time I went to Smith, but I still lead sport at the same level. So, if I were to base my climbing ability only on the ratings, I would have to reason that all of the time and energy I have focused into learning trad seems to have been of little, if any, benefit to my sport climbing. Yet, I feel like a better climber in general, regardless of what the ratings tell me. Trad has been good for the head, and makes me look at things a bit more creatively (I keep coming up with ways to jam a knee bar at the crux of sport climbs and get a little rest when I would otherwise have peeled off).

 

So, to answer the original question, I currently lead sport and trad at the same level (10a), and can follow or TR sport or trad at least a number grade higher (11a/b). Ah, lots of room for improvement!

[North_by_Northwest]

Seems like a lot of us have the same difficulties. I have never done a lot of sport climbing; my first climbs were multi-pitch trad and that's what I've focused on since. I followed easier climbs for a while, then started leading on gear in March. After the best season of alpine and trad climbing ever I'm solid on 5.9s and pretty confident leading 5.10 cracks.

However, a 5.11 sport climb, even a soft one, will punish me every time. On a recent trip to Smith it was even worse; I found myself doing the Elvis shake on 10b sport climbs. I think the rock there is tough if you're not used to it, especially for footwork.

In general I find myself far more comfortable and confident in cracks with gear than on faces with bolts. It just depends on what you're used to. I feel that I should be able to lead harder sport routes in comparison to my trad leads, so I may do some gym climbing this winter to gain strength. Whether I find myself on harder sport routes or not I'm sure I'll start the next season stronger.

[iain]

I think part of it has to do with engrams and muscle memory. The muscle movements of clawing your way up Phoenix are a world apart from the chops in Karate Crack. Doing one is not going to help much in the other, apart from some body tension stuff. Even sport climbs (as I found out on Heresy today) vary widely in what muscle groups and movements are used. There are a lot of gym boulderers who can waltz up overhanging jug routes but flail desperately on the thin stuff at Smith. Crack is even more foreign to them, so I would expect it to be the same for a crack specialist climbing face stuff at Smith.

 

I'll lead some 10a/b sport stuff, the odd 5.9 trad crack. These ratings can fluctuate though. As far as top rope vs. leading, I find I'm sometimes climbing worse on TR because I psych myself out by thinking "don't fall here you pussy toproper, your partner just led this ." As you can see I am not self-concious at all

[jkrueger]

As far as top rope vs. leading, I find I'm sometimes climbing worse on TR because I psych myself out by thinking "don't fall here you pussy toproper, your partner just led this."

 

Just goes to show how unreliable conventional wisdom can sometimes be when it comes to climbing!

[iain]

no kidding. For some reason the process of leading gets me more focused and I think I climb better on lead a lot of the time. No question I'll toprope stuff that I know I will be pitching early and often on though.

[Billygoat]

I just led my my first trad route w/o a tope rope back-up and found it to be completely mental. I was totally gripped placing gear I had to rely upon. The climb was just under my ability threshold but no one had ever climbed it before. when I climbed it a second time on tope rope I cruised right up w/o a care. It also helped to change from mountaineering boots to slippers. If I know the anchor is bomber, I'll push it. I just haven't taken a whipper on trad gear yet. As far as different styles affecting ability, I think ratings are 80% subjective and different types of rock and conditions alter the nature of any climb and climber. Even your partner or lack thereof can profoundly affect your performance/experience

[sexual_chocolate]

I'd say that from a conditioning viewpoint, sportclimbing would contribute more towards trad climbing than vice-versa. Trad climbing is not nearly as fore-arm specific, for the most part. It seems that a good sport climber quickly will adapt to trad (if the motivation is there), but the inverse is hardly true, from what I've witnessed.

 

There's quite a difference in what I've led, rating-wise, between sport and trad, but I think that's mainly due to my passion for sport climbing. I think if I concentrated on trad for a while, I'd do pretty well, but I just have no desire. Too messy, too bloody, too painful, etc.. In terms of grade, it's about a number and a half difference, maybe two.

 

I hardly ever top-rope. I just find my concentration is lacking. I don't enjoy climbing with a rope above me.

[pope]

The last time I went sport climbing, I found it pretty easy to adapt. At Smith, I was able to on-sight two letter grades harder (tied in with a bowline around my middle) than I had on granite; at Exit 38 the grades were even softer. In fact, most people I know claim to be able to lead harder grades on sport routes, and it ain't because they're concentrating on sport climbing. It's because, grade for grade, sport climbing is easier.

 

For training suggestions, any steep climbing will make you fit, but sport climbing (as I see it practiced) teaches you to fall and hang on your gear (poor habbits when you're in the mountains). It also makes you think you can climb grades that are actually over your head (see above), and it teaches you to climb with a "sissified" rack so that your legs won't be ready to carry a big pack up to a real climb. Hence, I recommend training with the big boys. I recommend climbing steep crack routes.

 

If you really want to get fit, sling one of these on while you train:

 

[daler]

Pope,

 

Its funny that you posted that picture. Thats how we named Gorilla Bar. We were climbing with that thing hanging off of our harnesses. The climb felt like M9+ until we took it off.

As far as sport climbing being bad for your mountain skills, that all depends on your frame of mind. Just because you can fall safetly on a bolt at Smith doesn't mean one has to believe they can whip on a blade up on a alpine face. it all comes down to strategy and experience. I was climbing next to Rolando Garibotti yesterday and he seems quite able to whip onto a bolt. But I don't think he and House were jumping on stubbies on the infinite spur.

Also all you folks that are breaking into trad climbing or are trying to make your first leads on gear. A good way to build confidence is to aid a couple of pitches on top rope so you can see what the gear does under body weight. it will give you a much greater understanding of funky placements. Most people start trad leading way under there technical threshold and never fall on the gear. Then they get their confidence up and start to lead harder routes without having ever tested their placements. A bad receipe for trad climbing.

As always the more types of climbing you pursue the better all around climber you will be.

 

Dale

 

[ryland_moore]

Iain described my climbing ability to a T. I grew up sport climbing on steep sandstone in the South. I had done some occassional trad climbing on friction at Looking Glass and Stone Mountain, and occassional trad lines at T-Wall, but didn't get into trad until moving out west. Alpine trad is very different than the "sport-climbing-like trad at T-Wall. Many Trad climbs were put up way before the rating system ever jumped above 5.9, so the old-school grades are typically harder than the newer sport-climbing grades. I can still have trouble with an alpine 5.8 put up in the 60's and flash 5.10 sport climbs like Chicken McNuggets at Smith with ease. I think a lot of it comes down to how you train. Crack climbing still seems foreign to me and I tend to look for tiny crimps and edges when climbing cracks. Also, Crack climbing leaves me more mentally and physically drained (enitre body), while sport climbs leave my fingers and forearms tired. I still feel like I suck at Trad, but I probably just need to lead more. Also, I have only taken one fall on trad and therefore less likely to push myself on sport than on trad. As for my abilities, I have TR'ed up to 5.11d sport and 5.10 trad (once on Caveat Emptor in Death Canyon, Tetons) and have redpointed .11a sport (but have tried to lead .11c) and have lead 5.9 trad, but do not feel comfortable leading that grade. To sum it up, climbing and climbing grades are so variable - depending on who put the route up, when it was put up, and where it was put up. Just because I say I lead 5.11 means that I could actually lead anywhere from 5.8 to 5.12 depending on where and what you are climbing. In my book, a 5.9 at Index is harder for me than a 5.11 sport at Smith or even a 5.11+ at the Callahans. My two cents for what it's worth...

[Peter_Puget]

From my own experience training for cracks is much more difficult than training for sport/face climbing. Mostly because there are so few opportunities to train for crack climbing. Last few years I have become irritated that my crack climbing sucks so much! I think Cavey once witnessed my dismal crack technique! In Seattle, I would recommend the training at the UW climbing rock. The cracks there are amazingly good for learning crack technique. Start by using everything then start eliminating rocks and finally the crack. Try to climb them with as many jams as possible. Down climb! Practice footwork. Even though it sometimes hurts like hell jamming your foot in a crack is essential to success. If you can't access the UW rock run laps as often as you can on route you can climb. At Index try top roping Iron Horse, Pressure Drop, Marginal Karma or Even Steven. At Smith I'd head to the Gorge. Minas Morgul is a fun TR too.

 

Of course once the technique is down there still is the question of strategizing where and when to place pro. Nothing wrecks my psych faster than pulling the wrong size piece off my rack. I can't remember the last time I fell doing a crack move because I always seem to freak out placing a piece and hang. Since sport climbing contains very little strategizing about protection it seem to have a negative impact on my crack climbing. Getting the pro thing down is the hardest part of crack climbing.

 

If you took ten Sporto climbers who flash 12b at Smith and 10 Trads who flash 5.12b crack in Yosemite and then asked the Sport climbers to climb Tales of Power(btw a climb with relatively straight forward protection) and the Trads to climb Watts Tots my guess would be that a higher percentage of Trads would succeed on WT than sport climbers on ToP.

 

[pope]

Peter speaks the truth and offers good advice. Head down to the UW wall (one of the best simulations of granite climbing to be found).

[Bob_Clarke]

One helps the other and the other helps the one. It's all good.

[Wallstein]

I feel the techniques, the required physical muscles, and mental preparedness vary greatly between the two types of climbing.

 

1st question.

 

If you are talking about pure crack climbing (i.e. Indian Creek) vs pure face climbing (Smith tuff, or Little si.) I don't think the physical conditioning crossover very much. Different back/ forearm muscles are stressed for each type of climbing. But comparing climbing crack climbing at Index vs some sport climbing in Yosemite I would say there is more of a crossover. Both of these areas require cripping strength and endurance. In general though if I only climb one of the forms, the other form suffers.

 

2nd question:

In terms of technique I think there are some similarities and differences. Resting on a crack or face can be very similar, stand on your feet, hang off your arms without bending your elbows, switch resting arm at short intervals. Foot work is one of the few techniques that can be learnt from technical face climbing that will help in crack climbing, more so than vice-versa. Crack climbing more often just requires you to insert and twist your foot, where face climbing requires back steps, using the outside edge of your shoes and other fancy manouvers. The stradegy in wich I lead a crack/face climbs is the same, don't let go. I go about this is different ways though. When I look up at a crack climb I look for what maybe the most difficult section, the rests, and gear locations/rack size. I find this harder to do on face climbs and less important. When I am crack climbing I seem to rest much more and analyze where to put the gear. When I sport climb I don't have to worry about placing gear so I usually climb a little faster.

 

3rd question:

When I started climbing I could lead way harder face climbs. When I was peaking as a sport climber I felt comfortable leading /onsighting 5.12-, but couldn't lead a 5.9 hand crack. My level as a sport climber hasn't changed much since then but I have made great advances at crack climbing. It took me much longer to reach 5.12 crack climbing due to a couple of things. Placing protection gets harder as the grade rises as does the metal endurance required to go for it. Now I feel much more comfortable leading a 5.12 crack climb than I do a 5.12 face climb. I also find it easier to onsight hard crack climbs vs hard face climbs. Generally a crux for a hard crack climb maybe putting in the gear and general endurance. A crux for a face climb is more likely to require great amounts power and bouldering strength, which I don't have. <chestbeating> I have onsighted a whole number grade harder (5.12- face vs. 5.13- crack)</chestbeating>

 

4th question:

Toproping is really hard for me, I usually climb at a lower grade on toprope than while leading. For some reason I seem to give up more often on toprope, this is probably due to the lower sense of mental commitment.

[fern]

I think it's pretty simple that you get better at the things you practice.If you put a little more focus into practicing the things you are weakest at (including mental skillz) then you will improve in everything.

 

I mostly seem to climb in the 85%-to-100+%-chance-of-success range of my abilities so I don't REALLY know what my upper end is, but I would guess that my onsight level is the same for Squamish and Smith, which could be interpreted to mean I suck at sport climbing , and that level is 5 letters below what I have bothered to hauled my fat ass up on toprope (sport or crack, same number)

 

non-climbing specific strength training has improved my confidence and power for all types of climbing, though with some coincident sacrifice to technique since I haven't got out cragging a whole lot this year.

[Peter_Puget]

Wall's post got me a thinking about how often thin crack climbing apporaches face climbing. The perfect example would be Clean Crack at Squamish. Climbs like those at Indian Creek, which Wallstien calls "pure" crack climbs are the rare exception. For example climbs like Moratorium or Gold Rush in the Valley do not have typical "jam your feet in the crack" sections at their respective cruxes yet they are without doubt crack climbs. Many crack routes have cruxy sections of off balance laybacking(eg Back to the Future or almost all the cracks at Snowshed Wall at Donner Summit, Psychopath start to Iconoclast) These routes require a commitment and confidence in placing pro that sport routes do not have and which seems to require specific practice but alot of the technique used to climb them is typically associated with face routes. The diverse nature of crack routes of course begs the question: what is a face route? Face routes and sport routes seem to be used interchangably in this thread yet there is a world of difference between overhanging jug routes and a thin Meadows test piece. As the grades get harder I think Wallstien hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that lots of face climbing footwork (esp the lower angle routes) can be transferred to crack climbing. Thinking of a route at Smith that feels like a crack climb for me as far as far as footwork I came up with Latin Lover. So all this rambling leads me to conclude that RG2002 is right when he says it is all good.

[forrest_m]

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far, and I'm not going to repeat it; but here's a few additional thoughts: [dang, PP scooped my first point while I was typing, but anyway...]

 

it seems to me that there is a convergence of technique in a lot of harder crack climbs, especially very thin ones, where you begin using a lot of face climbing techniques. in a 5.11 finger crack, too small for your feet to really jam, you are basically laybacking the crack lip with your feet or smearing on face holds. some crack climbs are hard because the crack is discontinuous, or only has certain places where you can jam (i.e. pin scars), so outside edging to get a few extra inches of reach can be crucial. careful stemming technique - including drop knees, etc - can make all the difference in how tiring it is to place gear. This is probably also all true for easier crack climbs, but on 9s and 10s, the crack is usually big and obvious enough to absorb all your effort, whereas on thin stuff, you have to look around for something else.

 

I don't take the whole "sport climbing will train you to fall a lot" argument very seriously. Placing gear and clipping bolts are different, my brain treats them differently. On a bolted route, I don't pay too much attention to the pro, thinking about the route as a whole. I clip where it'convenient, rest when appropriate, even if it's halfway between bolts; whereas on a trad lead, I tend to break it up into a series of quick bursts between stances. I'm much more calculating on gear leads.

 

as far as conditioning goes, I think one of the best ways to train for crack climbs is to run laps on something moderate on TR. you learn make the jams as your strength declines; I think this is maybe less

useful on face climbing routes, because the first thing to go is your precision, and training while very pumped may actually ingrain bad habits. (I'm not too sure about this last bit, but it seems like it makes sense...)

 

my hardest redpoint is harder on sport, but only by a few letter grades. On the other hand, what I think is really interesting is that the difference between my hardest redpoint and hardest flash on crack climbs is only one letter grade, bolt clipping it's a full number grade - and my hardest flash is the exact same grade for both types of climbing! I think there are a few reasons for this: I am much less likely to work a gear climb, in fact I am unlikely to attempt to lead a gear route that I don't think I have at least even odds of climbing without falling. Also, the people who I go to smith with mostly climb harder than me, and as I am a sucker for peer pressure, I always end up trying routes that are harder that I otherwise would... and sometimes I even manage to climb them.

 

[Geek_the_Greek]

I think it's pretty simple that you get better at the things you practice.If you put a little more focus into practicing the things you are weakest at (including mental skillz) then you will improve in everything.

 

Indeed. If you want to get better at climbing, go climbing. Don't equate totally different climbs of the same number grade as equally difficult for you to do. Grades, at least letter grades, are pretty much all crap from any sort of objective point of view.

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

A gaper's point of view-

 

I have to climb sport climbs to stay good at them skills. I have to climb slabs to keep in tune with them. I have to flail on cracks because I like them better.

 

I can lead the exact same level in all 3. That said gapers will be better climbers overall

[North_by_Northwest]

Head down to the UW wall (one of the best simulations of granite climbing to be found).

 

I hear there's a guy down there who is an expert at conditioning for climbing, and he shares his knowledge freely with all who will listen.

 

RED FUGKING TOWER!!

 

[Geek_the_Greek]

So, along the lines of the original post, I was just at Stone gardens this morning, and the new bouldering area has some very finely sculptured cracks. I think I'll be doing some laps on at least two of these, both variations on the hand crack theme.

So in this case, climbing in the gym could certainly help your trad skills (otherwise I think the crossover is generally minimal).