Had Your Flu Shots Yet?

[glassgowkiss]

4. but I'm also one of those limp-dicked morons who trusts my doctor and 1000's of scientists over my own opinions. It seems to be working for me so far.

3 years ago I went 3 times to my physician, about feeling tired and having cyclical abdominal pain. He suggested I have elevated blood sugar levels, and wanted to prescribe statins and anti-depressants! It turned out at the end I was suffering from chronic appendicitis (for which his meds would do fuck all, except give me muscle cramps and muscle pain)! Fuck, if he just listened to what I was saying I could have taken 2 weeks of antibiotics instead of having emergency appendectomy with a price tag of 20K. Guess what- also my blood sugar returned to normal as well.

No I take their advice, but I make decisions myself. In vast majority of cases of injuries I see daily, I would say physicians are about 25% right. In 75% they provide a bad advice.

[Choada_Boy]

What could 1000s of scientists possibly know? Especially if their findings remain unpublished...

 

Diagnosis, on the other hand... Doctors are idiots. They only know what they know. I want one of these with access to all documented medical cases:

 

Elementary

[glassgowkiss]

What could 1000s of scientists possibly know? Especially if their findings remain unpublished...

 

Diagnosis, on the other hand... Doctors are idiots. They only know what they know. I want one of these with access to all documented medical cases:

 

Elementary

There is science and there is a pseudo-science, and if you look in medical field there is plenty of the later and less of the first. And how scientifically can you explain the need for anti-influenza mass vaccination? Science shows no effect on frequency of infections and on mortality rates.

[JosephH]

Fuck, if he just listened to what I was saying I could have taken 2 weeks of antibiotics instead of having emergency appendectomy with a price tag of 20K.

Only then you would die of cancer from the antibiotics.

[jon]

Every hospital or clinic in WA and B.C requires you to get vaccinated agains influenza, or wear a mask.

 

The last four years I declined getting vaccinated despite significant pressure from the organization to get it; they can't legally force you to do it as far as I'm aware. They wanted us to do it because they have to reach a certain percentage (90%) of vaccinations to get a grant from the State. I didn't get it not because I'm anti-vaccine, but because I feel a health person doesn't develop proper lasting immunity, which increases herd immunity, without getting properly infected.

 

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I've never gotten a flu shot.

 

I wish I could say that I knew they might be bad for you all along, but I just hate needles.

[glassgowkiss]

Every hospital or clinic in WA and B.C requires you to get vaccinated agains influenza, or wear a mask.

 

The last four years I declined getting vaccinated despite significant pressure from the organization to get it; they can't legally force you to do it as far as I'm aware.

 

You are correct- legally they can't force you, however in practical terms they will make your job impossible to perform in a lot of cases. They do it by requiring a mask.

[Off_White]

Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre is supposed to be a pretty great book on the subject. Looks like it won't be out until January: http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Pharma-Companies-Mislead-Patients/dp/0865478007

 

It is simultaneously possible for the industry to both provide vital medications and be utterly corrupt, those are not contradictory.

 

Medicine is broken. We like to imagine that it’s based on evidence and the results of fair tests. In reality, those tests are often profoundly flawed. We like to imagine that doctors are familiar with the research literature surrounding a drug, when in reality much of the research is hidden from them by drug companies. We like to imagine that doctors are impartially educated, when in reality much of their education is funded by industry. We like to imagine that regulators let only effective drugs onto the market, when in reality they approve hopeless drugs, with data on side effects casually withheld from doctors and patients.

 

All these problems have been protected from public scrutiny because they’re too complex to capture in a sound bite. But Dr. Ben Goldacre shows that the true scale of this murderous disaster fully reveals itself only when the details are untangled. He believes we should all be able to understand precisely how data manipulation works and how research misconduct on a global scale affects us. In his own words, “the tricks and distortions documented in these pages are beautiful, intricate, and fascinating in their details.” With Goldacre’s characteristic flair and a forensic attention to detail, Bad Pharma reveals a shockingly broken system and calls for something to be done. This is the pharmaceutical industry as it has never been seen before.

[glassgowkiss]

you don't have to search far- case and point: vioxx.

"The study, an analysis of a database of 1.4 million Kaiser Permanente members, found that those who took Vioxx were more likely to suffer a heart attack or sudden cardiac death than those who took Celebrex, Vioxx's main rival. Based on their findings, Graham and his collaborators linked Vioxx to more than 27,000 heart attacks or sudden cardiac deaths nationwide from the time it came on the market in 1999 through 2003."

Mekr knew this even during the trials, but were hiding these facts during the approval process.

[Kimmo]

and since we're talking about vaccines:

 

US gov says vaccinations caused autism disorder and approves compensation to parents.

 

Meanwhile in Italy....

[JosephH]

In deciding the case, which has sparked anew the vaccine-autism debate, the federal government has not said that childhood vaccines cause autism. Rather, federal officials conclude the vaccines, given to Hannah in 2000, aggravated a pre-existing condition that then manifested as autism-like symptoms.

The death toll from childhood diseases would be unthinkable without vaccines. You must be younger and your father and mother didn't recount the tales of how many friends and classmates died all the way through their schooling.

[ivan]

flu vaccines...meh...most years i don't get one, some i do (they *are* free if the hmo that's porking me already won't charge me extra)...can't recall getting the flu in a decade or more? shit, ever since i was an adult? my steady diet of adventure and dangerous narcotics no doubt has been far more relevant as a nostum?

[Kimmo]

In deciding the case, which has sparked anew the vaccine-autism debate, the federal government has not said that childhood vaccines cause autism. Rather, federal officials conclude the vaccines, given to Hannah in 2000, aggravated a pre-existing condition that then manifested as autism-like symptoms.

The death toll from childhood diseases would be unthinkable without vaccines. You must be younger and your father and mother didn't recount the tales of how many friends and classmates died all the way through their schooling.

 

and that's the rub, joe. what a quandary. if there is found to be a link between asd and vaccines in certain susceptible kids (how many might that be?), how do we proceed in a way that doesn't threaten the progress we've made in eradicating vaccine-preventable illness?

 

From Bernadine Healy, former director of the NIH:

 

Healy said: "There is a completely expressed concern that they don't want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people. "First of all," Healy said, "I think the public's smarter than that. The public values vaccines. But more importantly, I don't think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you're afraid of what it might show."

 

link

[Kimmo]

You'd think?!?

 

Lastly, Healy says the government has a long way to go to even do basic research that could get at the heart of what she believes is an open question. For example: why in the past decade hasn't the government compared the autism/ADD rate of unvaccinated children with that of vaccinated children? If the rate is the same, it tends to point away from vaccines. If the rate is markedly lower in unvaccinated children, it tends to point toward vaccines.

 

Healey again.

[Kimmo]

ok ok one more nugget for thought:

 

The antibody to this antigen was found in 83% of autistic children but not in normal children or siblings of autistic children. Thus autistic children have a hyperimmune response to measles virus, which in the absence of a wild type of measles infection might be a sign of an abnormal immune reaction to the vaccine strain or virus reactivation.

 

link

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm too busy rechecking the voltage in all my outlets to weigh in on this important topic.

[Off_White]

It could be related to the findings of this recent study: Mothers who have influenza during pregnancy are twice as likely to have autistic children. link Turns out docs are recommending that pregnant mothers get a flu shot.

 

Kimmo, while you've found Healy who supports a certain hypothesis, the results of studies and the consensus of almost all researchers on the subject concludes that vaccines do not cause autism. This is just the flip side of the occasional climate change denier: the strange notion that fairness means giving equal weight to a single opinion that runs contrary to a thousand others, especially if it confirms your own bias.

[Off_White]

I'm too busy rechecking the voltage in all my outlets to weigh in on this important topic.

 

Warning, recent research has revealed that tinfoil hats actually amplify the bad waves, and that the whole promotion of said hats is a terrorist plot. Also, tinfoil gloves are not recommended for electrical work.

[Kimmo]

Kimmo, while you've found Healy who supports a certain hypothesis

 

healy states clearly that she doesn't support a particular hypothesis, only that a particular hypothesis has not been properly investigated; there's a big difference between the two.

 

the results of studies and the consensus of almost all researchers on the subject concludes that vaccines do not cause autism.

 

really? which studies? i haven't seen a study comparing vaccinated vs un-vaccinated kids from birth to X years of age. if there is one, let me know cuz i'd love to read it.

 

This is just the flip side of the occasional climate change denier: the strange notion that fairness means giving equal weight to a single opinion that runs contrary to a thousand others, especially if it confirms your own bias.

 

climate change has been studied in a very specific manner. i haven't seen the same type of studies with vaccines (maybe i just haven't seen them? sounds like you have so i'd love to hear about them).

 

btw, did you read the links i provided?

[tvashtarkatena]

The subject of vaccines does seem to cause mental retardation, although I haven't seen any studies to support that.

[Kimmo]

I'm too busy rechecking the voltage in all my outlets to weigh in on this important topic.

 

after you're done, can you please go check all your neighbors' outlets?

[jon]

really? which studies? i haven't seen a study comparing vaccinated vs un-vaccinated kids from birth to X years of age. if there is one, let me know cuz i'd love to read it.

 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full

[ivan]

it's clearly the pernicious interaction between the vaccines AND the fluoridated water!

[Kimmo]

really? which studies? i haven't seen a study comparing vaccinated vs un-vaccinated kids from birth to X years of age. if there is one, let me know cuz i'd love to read it.

 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full

 

i've read this study before, and i don't think this is a study that compares vax vs non-vax kids, only mmr and thimerosal effects on autism rates among vaccinated kids, right?

 

from the above study:

 

No studies have compared the incidence of autism in vaccinated, unvaccinated, or alternatively vaccinated children (i.e., schedules that spread out vaccines, avoid combination vaccines, or include only select vaccines). These studies would be difficult to perform because of the likely differences among these 3 groups in health care seeking behavior and the ethics of experimentally studying children who have not received vaccines.

[Choada_Boy]

I only trust research I read on .com websites. .org websites have a liberal bias.