This is interesting...

[matt_warfield]

At each end of the social spectrum there is a leisure class, quoting a prominent Yosemite veteran. Guess which end climbers are on. In the middle are the rest of us.

[matt_warfield]

Duly noted. I appreciate accurate information. But it was an event in Canada by someone with cajones down to the knees.

[Rad]

Time is the limited resource we all have to decide how to spend. I wouldn't trade my family or career for being an 11 all-rounder.

 

I do enjoy climbing in the mountains and on long routes and want to make the most of my times there, so I train as best I can. But I haven't found a way to train for pure friction moves. None of the friction areas I know (Darrington, Static Pt, Squamish, and farther afield) are close enough to hit with any regularity.

[Alex]

Time is the limited resource we all have to decide how to spend. I wouldn't trade my family or career for being an 11 all-rounder.

 

I'd get back into 11 shape if there were hott prana-top groupies, though. But last I heard they were all bouldering ....

 

[pink]

i demand this be moved to the rock-hard-man forum sickie

 

 

does cc.com get anymore fucking ghey than this????????? seriously !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

just kidding! great post rudy...... i'm actually surprised that john does not have an avatar on cc.com guess he never got a chance to climb at beacon ;

[ivan]

everyday i am training to be greatest 5.11 climber

[RuMR]

You get good at what you do. If you pull plastic bouldering routes you get good at plastic bouldering routes. If you climb slabs all the time you get good at that. If you climb crimpy Little Si enduro routes you get good at those. Unfortunately, skills in one area usually don't confer much benefit in the other areas. The only way to become a solid all-around climber is to climb all of the styles, with particular emphasis on your weaknesses.

 

Most people don't have/make time to log that many hours on distant crags to get good at everything. Wet weather doesn't help the equation. I wish there was a gym where I could practice slab climbing. Ditto jamming of different sizes. Yes, there are some gyms that have fake cracks but they're pretty far from the real thing.

 

So here's a hypothesis: it's not possible to become a 5.11 all-rounder if you live on the wet side of our mountains and have a family and job because you simply can't log enough hours practicing all the necessary skills. Maintaining a high level of proficiency is easier than gaining it in the first place, which is why I say "become" rather than "be" above. Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

ps. Largo is too Yosemite-centric. We need a list of NW benchmark routes.

Well said, Rad...

[ryanb]

I'm more of an "occasional v2 move" trad climber but just to offer a dissenting opinion, for me the difference between climbing 5.11 at index and not climbing 5.11 at index has more to do with the ability to hold onto really small holds then anything else.

 

Pure 5.11 jamming is rare there (pressure drop is the only climb i can think of off hand) and most things get a lot easier if you can stick the tips of a couple of fingers in a pod and think it is a good hold or campus credit card edges. I watched an australian sport climber learn to place gear on iron horse climbing up and down into the crux and fiddling around with cams he had racked all on one biner. It wasn't pretty but he made it.

 

The few 9's and 10's or 9 and 10 sections of routes there require a lot more diversity of technique and are often more intimidating...a friend told me she didn't like to climb the 9's because it made her forget how doable the 11's were.

 

Other areas may be different but in WA climbing 5.9 cracks and bouldeirng at a reasonable level will get you up a lot of 5.11's...

 

 

 

[Rad]

I'm more of an "occasional v2 move" trad climber but just to offer a dissenting opinion, for me the difference between climbing 5.11 at index and not climbing 5.11 at index has more to do with the ability to hold onto really small holds then anything else.

 

Pure 5.11 jamming is rare there (pressure drop is the only climb i can think of off hand) and most things get a lot easier if you can stick the tips of a couple of fingers in a pod and think it is a good hold or campus credit card edges. I watched an australian sport climber learn to place gear on iron horse climbing up and down into the crux and fiddling around with cams he had racked all on one biner. It wasn't pretty but he made it.

 

The few 9's and 10's or 9 and 10 sections of routes there require a lot more diversity of technique and are often more intimidating...a friend told me she didn't like to climb the 9's because it made her forget how doable the 11's were.

 

Other areas may be different but in WA climbing 5.9 cracks and bouldeirng at a reasonable level will get you up a lot of 5.11's...

 

I agree, but I think you missed the point of the article. It's one thing to be able to lead a few 11s. Being able to confidently lead testpiece 5.11s in all different styles is a much, much higher bar.

[RuMR]

Exactly, Rad...

 

[Kimmo]

So...where do you put yourself? I can think of a couple of cc.comers that qualify!

 

Man, I don't personally know ANY who qualify. Any and all 5.11's, including J tree slabs, and offwidths? In a comfortable style? pffffft.

 

only 3 come to mind: honnold, croft, and the late reardon. because they could do all the above, including in the discipline of free solo (the most pure form of our hobby).

[RuMR]

nah...nut job doesn't apply...

[boadman]

So...where do you put yourself? I can think of a couple of cc.comers that qualify!

 

nice link to the fuddyduddy forum on the taco, but are you thinking of cc.comers that qualify as all around yosemite 5.11 crack climbing experts or as tiresome windbags who whine ceaselessly about how things ain't so good as they were back in the day of the stonedmasters? seems like there are more than "a couple" on this site who qualify for the latter.

So, if your one of them, who is the "other" one that qualifies? Ivan?

 

I'm a solid 5.6 trad climber, does that mean I'm half a 5.11 trad-master? A bit more than half, to be precise.

 

[video:youtube]

 

I think the point of the post by John Long was that calling oneself a 5.11 climber and being able to climb any 5.11 onsight regardless of style is a fairly select club. I am most certainly not in this club...

 

I'd say Ben is, souldreaper is, mike is, etc...there are some awesome climbers on this site...that was my point...Pysched on the NW climbers!

 

I bet if you asked all three of those guys if they've failed to onsight an 11 at Index within the last couple of years, they'd say yes.

 

(not to imply that they're not all fantastic climbers)

 

 

Edited August 22, 2012 by boadman

[ryanb]

I'm more of an "occasional v2 move" trad climber but just to offer a dissenting opinion, for me the difference between climbing 5.11 at index and not climbing 5.11 at index has more to do with the ability to hold onto really small holds then anything else.

 

Pure 5.11 jamming is rare there (pressure drop is the only climb i can think of off hand) and most things get a lot easier if you can stick the tips of a couple of fingers in a pod and think it is a good hold or campus credit card edges. I watched an australian sport climber learn to place gear on iron horse climbing up and down into the crux and fiddling around with cams he had racked all on one biner. It wasn't pretty but he made it.

 

The few 9's and 10's or 9 and 10 sections of routes there require a lot more diversity of technique and are often more intimidating...a friend told me she didn't like to climb the 9's because it made her forget how doable the 11's were.

 

Other areas may be different but in WA climbing 5.9 cracks and bouldeirng at a reasonable level will get you up a lot of 5.11's...

 

I agree, but I think you missed the point of the article. It's one thing to be able to lead a few 11s. Being able to confidently lead testpiece 5.11s in all different styles is a much, much higher bar.

 

Well sure, and anyone who can send (let alone reliably onsite) 5.11 in all styles is absolutely a badass. Personally I suck but I've had the privilege of following a number of great local climbers up a bunch of 11's and leading 1 or 2 myself. My point is more that only having time to train in a gym doesn't really stop you from climbing 99% percent of the 5.11's in wa. I mean the only pure (ie no face holds) 5.11 offwidth jamming I can even think of is the p3 variation on freedom rider.

 

A stylistically diverse WA 5.11 trad tick list might look like:

 

Slab: Newest Industry, thin fingers

 

Pure finger locks: ??? Even Steven has a short section but is more of an enduro sport crux.

 

Pinscars: Iron Horse

 

Off Fingers/Thin hands: Pressure Drop

 

Hands: ??? Royale flush...i can't think of any roped hand cracks that hard?

 

Fists: Isn't there something on midnight rock?*

 

Offwidth: p3 var to freedom rider, Another Man's Car*

 

Really Steep: ??? Maybe Mastadon's roof*

 

Munging in a Corner: Numerous

 

More or less vertical face with bad holds far apart and occasional jams: Everything else

 

*Route's I only know by reputation...not that i've done more then flail on the others. I'm probably missing a ton of great climbs. Anyone else have any suggestions?

 

[Kimmo]

nah...nut job doesn't apply...

 

sure, we can configure the list to include/exclude any particular discipline, but we are talking "all arounder" here, and imo you can't exclude the purest of the pure rock climbing disciplines.

 

but even with a contrived list, a 5.11 "master" would onsite any and all routes in the given grade (minus obvious sandbags), and this I know of no one doing.

[RuMR]

we are of course, playing hypothetical rules! and by my "rules", nut jobs aren't included! insert cheesy grin....

[eric8]

A friend of mine has onsited a couple of squamish 5.11 offwidths, most of the 5.11 slabs on the apron, and all the popular multipitch squamish 11's. But I would say his index 5.11 onsite rate is well below 50%...

[TimL]

I havn´t read anything so absurd since the last time I wasted time on this site….if anyone wants to see if they are a 5.11 climber, come with me next week to Index for a day or two cause I wanna see if I can be an off the couch 5.11 climber…ha ha ha ha ha….so does not leading a route after two or so years mean you can consider it as an alzheimers onsite…if so maybe I can wiggle my way into being a mighty “NW 5.11 climber”…..

[shaoleung]

How about if we consider ourselves multidimensional climbers that don't have to be pigeon-holed into "a particular-level climber"? How cool would that be. No disrespect to John Long, but come on. Climbing is fun whatever you're climbing. I'm all for pushing the limits of my ability and ratcheting up the levels as I can handle it but if I climbed so that I could be called "a 5.11 climber" I would be a much unhappier climber. It's just freakin' fun!

[Julian]

An interesting comment, considering that so much of the subtext of the discussion on ST is "5.12 sport wanker can't climb 5.9 trad lol", is one from Dave MacLeod, who's arguably the best all-around climber in the world. He once said (paraphrased from someone who quoted him on UKClimbing) that if you are going to talk about who the best climbers are, you need to base it off hard sport climbing and bouldering, because trad climbing is comparatively easy money.

[RuMR]

I havn´t read anything so absurd since the last time I wasted time on this site….if anyone wants to see if they are a 5.11 climber, come with me next week to Index for a day or two cause I wanna see if I can be an off the couch 5.11 climber…ha ha ha ha ha….so does not leading a route after two or so years mean you can consider it as an alzheimers onsite…if so maybe I can wiggle my way into being a mighty “NW 5.11 climber”…..

I dunno Tim...seems to me that after 500 ascents of a route, one can't claim "Alzeihmers"...and i hear that Spanish tufa makes great sofa cushions...just sayin'

[whirlwind]

one thing to consider as well, which i'm not sure anyone addressed, is that you may climb the crap out of 5.11 here in the north west; index, 11, sqam, but then go to say Indian creek, j-tree or yos where the rock is a bit different, and get ur ass handed to you are you still a 5.11 climber?

[RuMR]

that was kind of the point...it takes a lot of climbing to be proficient on any 5.11 anywhere...

[whirlwind]

yeah i figured but it seemed like people where focused on how hard they climb at index.