old school climbers vs. sport climbers

[willstrickland]

What a clusterf#$&*.....might as well add to it:

Mysticfishtaco: If you really want to get some good hands-on pro placement practice then get on a pitch you can clean aid that starts a pitch or two off the ground. Be certain you have a bomber anchor and aid the pitch. Repeat ad infinitum. An ideal pitch would be slightly overhanging and on a clean (no mid-pitch ledges or protruding horns,flakes,etc) wall.

You'll place five times more gear on each pitch than you would place while leading it free. You'll be forced to deal with weird pro situations, you'll learn the limitations or particular types of gear. And, you'll eventually become a fast aid climber which will be the ticket when you want to do a mellow wall route like the Nose or the Reg route on Half Dome. You'd be amazed at the amount of long routes you can do leading at no higher than 5.10 and aiding two or three pitches or parts of pitches.

As for the question of what makes a sport route? Kinda one of those "I can't explain it, but I know it when I see it deals" And the Bachar-Yerian a sport-route? Oh, I get it..a joke

[Bronco]

PeterPeterPumpkinEater:

This is a tired topic, but it is the funnest today.

If you were to ask me if I was a sport or Trad climber, I would say Trad. Simply because it is my preference to master that particular discipline. I want to climb hard mountains of rock and ice and it's generally advised to be able to place your own gear even if the route (talking alpine here) is bolted. Another distinction I made in my first post is I would rather be in the mountians screwing around than "sportclimbing" (per the above definition of said sportclimbing). Does that make me an evil trad clan member? NOPE!

Hey, I also think you are taking this issue way too seriously. Or -you must be even more bored than I am at work!!!

Me Bronco! Me like mountains!

[LUCKY]

I know a climber that can swap leads on Astroman with his girlfriend ,climb 5.13 sport ,solo sick waterfall ice,and sends sick highball boulder problems, he does'nt brag he does'nt slander he is a CLIMBER the rest of you are just Blackbelt Internet Spraymasters .

[This message has been edited by LUCKY (edited 10-04-2001).]

[pope]

Peter,

I hesitate to respond to YOUR questions 'cause I think you're an annoying little wart. However, I find your questions to be neither mystifying nor incisive, and I will allow myself these remarks:

1. Is bolting always bad? When you're on the lead, and you've got a drill, and the moves are difficult, you are allowed to save your butt. You're placing gear that is immediately necessary to complete your lead safely. When you hike up and rappel down, then make the choice to drill, you're simply deceiving yourself when you believe that these actions will ever result in anything that resembles "leading" or "free climbing".

Nevertheless, while bolting under the initial cirumstances seems admissable, and whereas adoption of such a style would tend to retard bolt infestation, I still don't like the results, and so I choose to top-rope when protection can't be found.

2. Since all human actions have impact at our crags, how should we recognize those which are immoral? Silly question. You just set up a matrix for each action, awarding points for things like visual impact, permanence, and challenge diminishment. For example, while chalk is ugly, it soon washes away. On the other hand, cutting a line of buckets is ugly, permanent, and it quickly turns a crag from big adventure into Ronald McDonald playland. As do bolts.

3. How may we add objectivity to such considerations? Easy. Exclude Peter Puget.

[This message has been edited by pope (edited 10-04-2001).]

[Lambone]

If you look at Sharma's new link up in Rock'n Ice or Climbing, you can see bolts that were placed to be used while working the crux of a route, but skipped on the redpoint attempt.

How do folks feel about that? (Pope need not answer.)

I think it is a bit exesive.

[two-flats-fer-sure]

This is a beat topic on this site!!!! All the points have been made and everyone knows the end result. What would Freid Say?

[offwidthclimber]

Originally posted by LUCKY:

I know a climber that can swap leads on Astroman with his girlfriend ,climb 5.13 sport ,solo sick waterfall ice,and sends sick highball boulder problems...

Damn man, you're making me blush.

HA! I wish...

But on that note, I'd rather be like that dude you're talkin' bout than some strick trad clan or super sporto wanker!

Diversity is the spice of life, right?

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by offwidthclimber (edited 10-04-2001).]

[TimL]

Wow, just imagine how much time and energy is wasted on such topics when one could call in sick and be climbing on such a nice day.

Why do people always have to label. We are all climbers and we are all doing it hopefully to have fun. Who gives a fuck if its bolts or crack, ice or rock. Who was it that said the best climber in the world was the one having the most fun?

I find that sport climbing helps crack climbing and with endurance on technical mountain routes. If you approach the different aspects of climbing (sport, crack, mountaineering, aid etc) with an open mind you will be surprised at how it will help your overall abiltiy.

[mattp]

Forest noted: it's getting a little ridiculous around here that everytime someone says "quickdraw", the thread turns into "Dan's Dreadful Direct Part XVIII."

I laughed when I read that, Forrest -- it is absolutely true. I am one of those that keeps referring to DDD, but this HAS been the most entertaining topic today, so far nobody has called anybody else a total asshole, and there have been some good points raised -- things that I haven't heard before. So I call it a good topic as long as it doesn't take over the entire board. Just as Washington has room for Sport and Trad, I hope CC.com has room for trip reports, gear info, and possibly pointless pontification (PPP).

[dan_e]

<moved message to start another topic, see "Sport Climbing, an evolution?!">

Dan E.

[This message has been edited by dane (edited 10-04-2001).]

[dan_e]

Quote from texplorer:

quote:

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If you want more safety go do another extreme sport like rollerblading

---

Funny that this is mentioned, in over ten years of climbing, one of my worse injuries is from inline skating or rollerblading if you must call it that. My point is many things in life can be dangerous, so choose carefully how you formulate comparisons.

As far as responding to the post, well I think everyone has made some valid points. I climb 'sport-routes', but I don't call myself a 'sport-climber'. I do believe as others have stated that you can trad climb, regardless of how much money you make. Most climbers don't start off with a fully loaded rack. I remember my first rack and it was puny, I had only one rigid cam! I was lucky enough however to have learned back in the day when climbing was still taught mainly outside and by experienced climbers who just liked to teach people how to climb. It's impossible to find this now, but it's not nearly as common. I think learning to climb in the gym and then buying some gear to head out and trad climb is an accident waiting to happen.

So, if you don't trad climb and want to learn, find someone experienced to teach you, or find an experienced guide (be careful just because they are a guide does not mean they know what they are doing!).

As for the gear goes, just buy a piece here and a piece there and your rack will grow!

Dan E.

 

[This message has been edited by dane (edited 10-04-2001).]

[slaphappy]

Once again Pope, you're a hypocrite!!! (did I get it right that time?)

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by LUCKY:

I know a climber that can swap leads on Astroman with his girlfriend ,climb 5.13 sport ,solo sick waterfall ice,and sends sick highball boulder problems, he does'nt brag he does'nt slander he is a CLIMBER the rest of you are just Blackbelt Internet Spraymasters .

 

[This message has been edited by LUCKY (edited 10-04-2001).]

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You so right Lucky! It so fun though hehehehhe

[Dru]

My belt is only black cause I haven't washed it for 6 months.

[This message has been edited by Dru (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Beck]

Let us not forget about the next generations of climbers...

[Dru]

You gonna have some kids Beck? what about the 'species barrier'?

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

You gonna have some kids Beck? what about the 'species barrier'?

---

A BeckeyRuxpin climbing bum!

[Beck]

No kids for me yet, Dru.. most chicks fall for Teddy's flirtatious gaze and the sparkle in his eyes and drop me like a hot potato!!

I still love him though, just wish he'd share the booty sometimes!

[LUCKY]

It finally came to me The difference between Old school climbers and sport climbers, sport climbers are just haveing way tooo much fun for the old schoolers to handle They need to reach for the Metamucil and loosen up that tight Ass. It's all about movement over stone, and it's all good.

[This message has been edited by LUCKY (edited 10-06-2001).]

[sexual_chocolate]

Ummm.... Do we really have an issue here? Hello....

The Traddy

 

Wishes Thanatos would kill Dionysus, once and for all.

Only owns a black and white TV, 'cause all the colors just make everything too confusing....

 

Pretends to like climbing, but just needs an excuse to try to prove himself to his father.

Wants his son to be just like him; mom can take care of the daughter.

Would never use a Gri-Gri; technology is frightening. Plus, Yvon Chouinard didn't use one.

Thinks the stick up his butt is constipation, but Metamucil doesn't help.

Secretly wants to join a militia, but what would Royal Robbins think?

Really likes the Taliban's views on right and wrong, but the turban would interfere on 5.6 slab-climbs.

And last, but not least... Really believes that "life was better in the good ol' days", when men were men, and ... well... men were men. What do you mean you don't understand?

[LUCKY]

Sexual Chocolate you really spice up The spray board and old lame debates.You have a way with the writen word.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Thinks the stick up his butt is constipation, but Metamucil doesn't help.

---

I thought the stick up your butt is where you got your name? Isn't that what sexual chocolate is? Who's stick has been in your butt? Doh! I really don't want to know the answer.

I have been waiting for this one.

[This message has been edited by OfficeSpace (edited 10-06-2001).]

[pope]

When you're feeling guilty about the ugly mess you make at the crags, it's easy to turn the argument into one of new vs. old, innovation vs. inertia. It's also easy to (mistakenly) claim that "trad" climbers are envious of the big numbers put up by sporties, and it's easy to deceive yourself into thinking "trad" climbers care one way or the other about the "sport climbing culture" you've developed. Again, when you feel guilty, you'll look for just about anything to divert attention from the real issue.

The truth: Yes, you sport climbers have some peculiar little habbits (hang dogging, use of gri-gris, surfer's accent, etc.), but there's room for all kinds of people in this world. Your average "trad" climber is only disgusted with the proliferation of bolts, and any insults that come your way have been primarily inspired by your disrespect for natural beauty.

The myths: Sport climbers climb harder grades, and that's why envious "trad" climbers bitch about bolts. Well, my hardest flash was at Little Mt. Si, and while I remember the grade, I can't remember the name of the route (it followed some bolts). I do remember thinking how nice it would be to climb grades like that at Midnight Rock (not a chance!). Climbing steep rock requires amazing athletic ability, but I've seen good athletes master steep, difficult sport routes in their first year of climbing, routes that I'd never be able to climb, since I'm not a great athlete. Yet, these same climbers struggled on 5.9/5.10 routes at Index. My point: climbing involves leading, and leading involves rigging protection. When you take that skill out of the mix, it's just not the same game. Of course big numbers are going to be put up, when all you have to do is clip.

I'm envious of good athletes in every sport. But just because I'm not 250 pounds, it doesn't mean I hate football. It's a splendid game, a game with complexity that I love to watch and coach. Similarly, just because I can't do a one-arm pullup, it doesn't mean I hate sport climbers. If I were a superb athlete, I'd continue to avoid bolting. I HATE BOLTS BECAUSE BOLTS ARE UGLY. I HATE RAP BOLTING BECAUSE IT DIMINISHES CHALLENGE.

Myth #2: Rap bolting is not a new idea, it is simply culturally acceptable today. I'm not sure that climbers used to have better enviro morals, but for one reason or another bolts have become accepted by many climbers. Whichever side of the fence you're on, try to take your thoughts on this subject out of the current context: the bolts you fire in today will forever change these cliffs. Are we leaving a legacy of which our children may be proud, or are we acting selfishly?

Myth #3: "Trad" climbers are not conservative, and most of them aren't on metamucil. Conservative climbers eliminate risk. Conservative climbers avoid uncertainty. Conservative climbers want going to the cliffs to be like shopping at Belle Square, where the only limit on establishing routes is the number of bolts and drilling equipment you can afford. Conservative climbers won't accept as part of the game the protection-rigging difficulties presented by a cliff...no, the cliff must be transformed into a sanitized, pre-packaged, risk-free "adventure", not entirely different from an amusement-park ride. Sport climbers are conservative. Sport climbers have removed sport from climbing. Sport climbers are neither.

Yes, let's dispense with the current designations. Let's call sport climbers "rock rapers", and let's call tradsters "rock climbers".

[Charlie]

very well said Pope! Trads are definitely LESS conservative. Spend the night in joshua tree and youre likely to here people raging 'till 3:00 am, followed by a day of runout sandbags. Ever camp at smith? Its quite time at 10:00-

[mattp]

Pope –

Great essay. I agree with you on nearly all points but a couple of the more pointed statements at the beginning and end of your post. Leading and placing gear is part of climbing, and the whole sport is changed when you remove these challenges. Bolts are ugly. Rap bolting diminishes challenge (for the route installer). Route installers often act out of selfish motivation and future changes in the sport may render all those bolts of no use at all and inarguably nothing but an eyesore. And good point that it is sport climbing which is conservative by nature. But I doubt sport climbers feel guilty about being sport climbers, and I believe they ARE climbers, though perhaps not as “sporting” as those who lead challenging climbs without all the bolts (they’ve removed sport from climbing – an amusing turn of words).

To suggest that sport climbers are rock rapers while tradsters are rock climbers suggests that you have no desire to communicate with this large group of climbers who do not share your views. I know I sound like a broken record, but I’d like to see more thoughtful essays like yours and to call sport climbers rock rapers is more likely to solicit retort than debate. If we go back to name calling, this thread will be nothing more than "DDD Restored, XVIII."

-Mattp