vantage toilet (at least as of June 20th..)

[BirdDog]

Raindawg - 5 years ago you were beating a dead horse on this subject. Now you're a slovenly old fuck groveling around in the dirt wacking at a pile of bleached bones with a willow twig, muttering to yourself.

 

mattp - thanks to you and WCC for your work on this!

[Raindawg]

Raindawg - 5 years ago you were beating a dead horse on this subject. Now you're a slovenly old fuck groveling around in the dirt wacking at a pile of bleached bones with a willow twig, muttering to yourself.

 

mattp - thanks to you and WCC for your work on this!

 

Classy response! Feel better about yourself?

And you didn't even get it right!

 

- it's been more like 11 years;

- I'm not particularly "old";

- slovenly? Never been called that before.

- groveling with a twig? hardly.

In other words, the horse ain't dead, not even close.

 

Here's how to make your life happier....if you see the name "Raindawg" on a post....DON'T READ IT...SCROLL ON BY, BUDDY.

You won't have to be re-exposed to ideas you disagree with and you might be less compelled to resort to nasty attacks on a climbing forum.

 

Permanent pit-toilets at Vantage? I supposed that's one possible solution to corralling the crap but they too will be vandalized and abused, expensive, and will require regular maintenance which someone will have to pay for, etc..

[G-spotter]

Look out for the toilet paper bandage mummy, dawg!

[Quarryographer]

I'm quite certain that I could never justify anything in your eyes. Nor do I care to try. The beautiful thing about this country is that you are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine. The sad truth is that your argument could have more gravity to me if it was approached differently. I too believe that people in general are trashing this planet at every turn. I wish it were not so, but that is the terrible truth, as it has been since long before people were allowed the luxury of outdoor recreation. However bolts do not seem to me the biggest problem. On the contrary, a well bolted rappel descent from a mountain can drastically minimize foot traffic scattered about, Tat and other garbage left everywhere. And I'm currently noticing many trees like the white bark pine dying from stress of being the main descent anchor for multiple parties a day. The problem is people. Our numbers are too many, and those purely clean climbing ethics cannot handle the entire climbing population. And would you really want droves of bumblees trampling the hillsides searching for new clean lines? I think it better to leave them in their giant herds at the Feathers, where hopefully they at least develop an appreciation for the outdoors they may not have otherwise found. And leave the alpine gems like the recent "Valkyrie" to the responsible and competent few who earn them.

PS I've personally witnessed those filthy sport climbers, myself included cleaning up real garbage left from partying concert goers many many times... Cheers

 

Also back on topic. Many many thanks to Matt, and the AAC! You guys rock!

[mattp]

This is a joint effort of the Mountaineers, Access Fund, American Alpine Club, and the Washington Climbers Coalition.

[pope]

Raindawg, whats your real name?

Just wait....MattP will disclose the name, address and social security number. Standard practice around here.

[Drederek]

Here's how to make your life happier....if you see the word vantage toilet on a post....DON'T CLIP IT...SCROLL ON BY, BUDDY.

You won't have to be re-exposed to ideas you disagree with and you might be less compelled to resort to nasty attacks on a climbing forum.

 

Permanent pit-toilets at Vantage? I supposed that's one possible solution to corralling the crap but they too will be vandalized and abused, expensive, and will require regular maintenance which someone will have to pay for, etc..

[mattp]

I think a toilet is going to be a big improvement out there.

[rob]

Do I believe that all bolts should be banned? No, they have their limited place, but they should be RARE.

 

I would love an example of an existing bolt that you think is justified.

 

Crickets....

[Tyson.g]

My thoughts exactly Rob.

 

[Off_White]

Raindawg, whats your real name?

Just wait....MattP will disclose the name, address and social security number. Standard practice around here.

 

Anyone who cares knows who both of you are, most don't care.

[AlpineK]

Anything you write on paper, email, or websites can be discovered and tied back to your true identity. An avatar name ain't gonna help you.

 

In most cases nobody cares, but ya never know

 

What was that line?

 

You can run but you can't hide.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Feck

[EthanH]

"Vantage? Find some protectable cracks and top-rope the other stuff"

 

Ha Ha Ha Ha!

 

In an effort to do just that, I climbed over on the Fugs Wall side. Trapeze wall in particular.

 

Once over there and climbing in Trad form as to live the proper way, I discovered why no one goes over and uses "protectable" cracks or "top ropes" (from what???). It is because the place is a freaking mess of unstable and pure scary choss.

I made my way up four Trad climbs on that side, with holds coming off under my feet and absolutely minimal reliable pro.

 

So yeah go ahead, forget the bolts just go ahead and climb your protectable cracks until the rock blows and then have your buddies scrape your guts off the talus.

 

 

Dude the trapeze isnt that chossy. It's actually got a couple of very good (short) climbs. So does green wall.

 

That being said most climbs require some care when climbing to find where the protection/holds are the most solid (even if it's not "bomber")

 

 

Edited July 2, 2012 by EthanH

[Tyson.g]

I would agree there are "a couple" good ones among a sea of choss.

Coming from the plethora of solid Darrington granite, I may be a bit biased.

[EthanH]

I would agree there are "a couple" good ones among a sea of choss.

Coming from the plethora of solid Darrington granite, I may be a bit biased.

 

 

I'll go with you on that =)

(Serious, not sarcastic)

[markwebster]

I've given money towards the Vantage toilets, have you?

 

Regarding raindawgs bolting opinions, it's important that we listen to his viewpoint. Climbing areas have been closed due to not respecting the climbing management plans...if there is one.

 

And numerous lines of bolts up cliffs can be offensive to other users of the resources, like bird watchers and hikers...they vote.

 

Still, Vantage and exit 38, Smith and other sport areas have accepted the trend toward safely bolted cliffs. As long as the bolts are placed according to rules of the climbing management plan for that area, why not? That's why there is a plan that is approved by the owners of the land, typically the government.

 

I used to climb with raindawg a lot back in the day. I'm guessing he would approve of the bolting in the Peshastin Pinnacles. It's runout, bold, and dangerous. Routes like Cajun Queen, Martian Diagonal Direct, Gray Whale. He used to love those routes.

 

The problem with run out bolting of that nature is that the routes become ego statements.

 

"Hey, I'm good enough to lead this route with just one bolt every 25 feet, what is your problem?"

 

When you put up a route that way, you establish a standard, and that is fine and honorable, but what happens down the road? People come to climb the public cliff, and they can't, because you turned what could have been a fine adventure for future generations into an ego statement. Like a dog and a fire hydrant, you've staked out your territory. (think, Yosemite Apron)

 

I've been guilty of this myself. But my reasons for runouts were the difficulties of ground-up hand drilling. I would have put in more, but there were no stances, and I was trying to drill by the standards of the day.

 

Fortunately this problem is becoming less common. Good new route creators build their routes with bolts appropriate for the grade. If a route is 5.8, it should be bolted for the average 5.8 climber, not a 5.11 climber who is slumming.

 

If modern, accepted bolting practices bothers you, climb trad. I love going to sport areas like Vantage, Smith, and the City and climbing trad. Trad climbers get more respect.

[rob]

Regarding raindawgs bolting opinions, it's important that we listen to his viewpoint.

 

Yes, but what IS his viewpoint? He claims he's not against all bolting, but he has yet to point out even a single bolt that he finds acceptable.

 

I'll let him pitch in and mention some bolted climbs he approves of -- I'd respect his opinion a lot more if he would. But so far he's done nothing to lead me to believe he's anything but completely anti-bolting (in all circumstances), and that's not a viewpoint we need to listen to.

[Off_White]

Regarding raindawgs bolting opinions, it's important that we listen to his viewpoint.

 

Actually? No, it's not important. That battle was fought long ago, and Raindawg's faction lost decidedly. He's like a southerner arguing how it was so much better back when the negroes knew their place. The world has moved so much beyond his black and white position, he's a historical irrelevancy.

 

Edited July 5, 2012 by Off_White

[LUCKY]

Daring post but spot on Offwhite

Raindawg = Don Ryan

Pope = Eric Mohler

Lucky = Lucky Curtis Gibson

 

Regarding raindawgs bolting opinions, it's important that we listen to his viewpoint.

 

Actually? No, it's not important. That battle was fought long ago, and Raindawg's faction lost decidedly. He's like a southerner arguing how it was so much better back when the negroes knew their place. The world has moved so much beyond his black and white position, he's a historical irrelevancy.

[Off_White]

I feel really stupid for not pointing out that toilets at Vantage are a really great development, thanks to all who've worked for this.

[RuMR]

Look out for the toilet paper bandage mummy, dawg!

hahaha