billcoe Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/create-do-not-kill-list/HwqFwRtG "The New York Times reports that President Obama has created an official “kill list” that he uses to personally order the assassination of American citizens. Considering that the government already has a “Do Not Call” list and a “No Fly” list, we hereby request that the White House create a “Do Not Kill” list in which American citizens can sign up to avoid being put on the president’s “kill list” and therefore avoid being executed without indictment, judge, jury, trial or due process of law." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 So Bill, just clear something up for me. Are you not an Obama supporter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 "The New York Times reports that President Obama has created an official “kill list” that he uses to personally order the assassination of American citizens. This is quite an exaggeration. That's not really how the NYT phrased it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 "The New York Times reports that President Obama has created an official “kill list” that he uses to personally order the assassination of American citizens. This is quite an exaggeration. Ya think It's a free country, create your own petition and spread the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 "The New York Times reports that President Obama has created an official “kill list” that he uses to personally order the assassination of American citizens. This is quite an exaggeration. That's not really how the NYT phrased it. That is no exaggeration of any kind regardless of how the NYT worded it. It's a direct consequence of the Bush administration's steady push for an increase in executive powers - suspension of Habeas Corpus, designation as enemy combatants, targeted assassinations of U.S. citizens, and a low bar for 'state secrets' prominent among them. Obama / Holder have held fast to those enhancements to executive power and that's the risk of such enhancements by either party - once presumed or granted, they are very difficult to restrain or revoke. Aside from the ever abysmal Roberts and Alito, the enhancement of executive power - almost ruling by fiat - is the worst of W's and the neocons' legacy. Bottom line is if executive decides they don't like you, they can designate you an enemy combatant and detain you indefinitely or assassinate you. Fighting it in court is similarly next to impossible while the executive can shield all pertinent evidence behind a judicial shield of 'state secrets' which prevents such cases from coming to trail. And that's what makes Roberts and Alito ever abysmal - their ardent support for expanded executive power due to their experiences in the Reagan administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 In WWII american citizens were killed by U.S. soldiers in the battlefield without trial -- some american families returned to Germany to help the Nazis. Anybody claiming that he's just willy-nilly throwing american citizens on there IS exaggerating, whether you like it or not. Things are bad enough without having to lie about them to make them seem worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Things are bad enough without having to lie about them to make them seem worse. POTD! Amen, brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 In WWII american citizens were killed by U.S. soldiers in the battlefield without trial -- some american families returned to Germany to help the Nazis. Irrelevant. Anybody claiming that he's just willy-nilly throwing american citizens on there IS exaggerating, whether you like it or not. Things are bad enough without having to lie about them to make them seem worse. One man's willy, is another man's life and when nilly is sitting at a predator console there isn't much exaggerating going on - just a lot of convenient apologetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 In WWII american citizens were killed by U.S. soldiers in the battlefield without trial -- some american families returned to Germany to help the Nazis. Irrelevant. Anybody claiming that he's just willy-nilly throwing american citizens on there IS exaggerating, whether you like it or not. Things are bad enough without having to lie about them to make them seem worse. One man's willy, is another man's life and when nilly is sitting at a predator console there isn't much exaggerating going on - just a lot of convenient apologetics. Well, how about reading the article for a start, rather than the hyberbole link to the petition. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all While I think this, and the condinuted use of detentions is problematic, I didn't see anything in the article about targeting US citizens. Where did that come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 The White House link provides a button to click on and create any kind of petition you want. I'm sure there are some bizarre petitions waiting for signatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) The White House link provides a button to click on and create any kind of petition you want. I'm sure there are some bizarre petitions waiting for signatures. Is there a button to nominate someone for assassination? Edited June 1, 2012 by Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Well, how about reading the article for a start, rather than the hyberbole link to the petition. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all While I think this, and the condinuted use of detentions is problematic, I didn't see anything in the article about targeting US citizens. Where did that come from? It isn't about what's in the article, it's about what's being practiced on a daily basis by the executive. Nothing I've said is based off of the article, but rather the realities of Whitehouse policy implementation across two presidencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 it's about what's being practiced on a daily basis by the executive. Nothing I've said is based off of the article, but rather the realities of Whitehouse policy implementation across two presidencies. Which of course you know with your omniscience and top-secret security clearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Nothing I've said is based off of the article, but rather the realities of Whitehouse policy implementation across two presidencies. And you know this how? I recall one US citizen that got flammed - who was the AQ PR guy. Yes, that action is debatable. Others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 well, if it is a 'list', doesn't it mean there will be others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 So Bill, just clear something up for me. Are you not an Obama supporter? I've ranted on this subject extensively before Jon. LOL. I don't support any President or government bureaucrat, no matter if it's George Bush or Barack Obama, being able to legally murder any innocent American citizen ...just ....because...they want too. That is EXACTLY what occurred in the Anwar al-Awlaki case. They tried it in the newspapers. The man said he didn't even say a lot of the things he was accused of (via the media as well). It's one thing when someone is an armed combatant and clearly self-defense and or preservation of others lives is the rational for killing them. That's war -what can anyone say about that. In this instance, douchbag wasn't and didn't even have a weapon other than a big mouth. Even if one took the tack that Al-aladouchebag was doing more than just "thought crime", it certainly is the case that the 16 year old American kid riding in the car who was executed at the same time as "collateral damage" was only guilty of proximity and relation to a douchbag. Opps. And for that the boy gets murdered? Not only was there no court case initiated, but the Feds specifically got the one Al-aladouches father filed in South Carolina tossed out of the courts. No due process for youuuuu they said, have your kid look us up! Dad says that there is a Fatwa, a public death sentence issued by Obama and the kid wants the court to rule cause he's not sticking his head out of the spider hole and getting it blown off in the process. I don't oppose the death penalty, but it should be the last resort, not the first choice and irrevocably issued like a "Fatwa" by a single person, even if it was the Messiah or Khomeini or Obama the peace loving noble laureate issuing it: and given only after due process as we have had for well over 200 years traditional. Had they captured the man and his son, had a speedy execution via bullet in the head after on a secret tribunal met, it would have been more extensive due process and consideration to the victims than they received. I think we should ask ourselves that had our son or daughter been murdered when riding in the car as it was blown up, would anyone of us feel differently? Now we find out that this is a new, extra-constitutional right the president is claiming. It is a clear violation of our constitutional right of due process. It should never ever happen, yet it just did and looks like it will continue. Looks exactly like the South American death squads start up. Who can support such a thing?[/rant]....for now:-) That's my thoughts. Why bother having a constitution if we don't need to follow it. Today maybe Mother Teresa is running the country, next election or the election after Hitlers angry son gets elected. Who would want that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 One more thing, for anyone who doesn't feel like I do. I'd suggest you read the book "Veil: The Secret Wars of the CIA, 1981-1987". Woodward was one of the investigative reporters who broke the watergate story. http://www.amazon.com/Veil-The-Secret-Wars-1981-1987/dp/0743274032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338581866&sr=8-1 William Casey as CIA director under Reagan is the book's subject. He may have had the best intentions and that group has many honorable folks working for us doing dirty and necessary jobs, but the politicization of such a powerful organization is scary as hell to me. The difference between them being the CIA that is working for the common good of our country and being a new improved gestapo, is very slim and a short distance for them to travel should they choose. Take care all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 what would president lincoln have done if he had predator drones, kill/capture teams and the whole military-intelligence apparatus available to our modern presidents? dollars to donuts, i bet it'd be the same damn thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 One more thing, for anyone who doesn't feel like I do. I'd suggest you read the book "Veil: The Secret Wars of the CIA, 1981-1987". Woodward was one of the investigative reporters who broke the watergate story. http://www.amazon.com/Veil-The-Secret-Wars-1981-1987/dp/0743274032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338581866&sr=8-1 William Casey as CIA director under Reagan is the book's subject. He may have had the best intentions and that group has many honorable folks working for us doing dirty and necessary jobs, but the politicization of such a powerful organization is scary as hell to me. The difference between them being the CIA that is working for the common good of our country and being a new improved gestapo, is very slim and a short distance for them to travel should they choose. Take care all! Gestapo??? LOL. Welcome to the Tin Foil Cap Society of Hyperbole and Paranoia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 One more thing, for anyone who doesn't feel like I do. I'd suggest you read the book "Veil: The Secret Wars of the CIA, 1981-1987". Woodward was one of the investigative reporters who broke the watergate story. http://www.amazon.com/Veil-The-Secret-Wars-1981-1987/dp/0743274032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338581866&sr=8-1 William Casey as CIA director under Reagan is the book's subject. He may have had the best intentions and that group has many honorable folks working for us doing dirty and necessary jobs, but the politicization of such a powerful organization is scary as hell to me. The difference between them being the CIA that is working for the common good of our country and being a new improved gestapo, is very slim and a short distance for them to travel should they choose. Take care all! You just blew my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 You don't boil a frog all of a sudden either. You take baby steps. The Nazis in Germany were democratically elected and overwhelmingly popular at one time as they offered up these kinds of solutions too Stephen. I'd rather just see the government follow the law of the land and not make it up due to expediency when it's convenient for them. The road to hell, as they say......is paved with good intentions. Rob, rob, come back brother..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 well, if it is a 'list', doesn't it mean there will be others? AQ types - certainly. But the arm waving was about a list of Americans the president was planning to kill. So I guess there's always the possiblility that there is another AQ staffer who is an American - but then again, maybe not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 US cops kill innocent black Americans every day, whitey. Why don't you cry about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 You don't boil a frog all of a sudden either. You take baby steps. The Nazis in Germany were democratically elected and overwhelmingly popular at one time as they offered up these kinds of solutions too Stephen. I'd rather just see the government follow the law of the land and not make it up due to expediency when it's convenient for them. The road to hell, as they say......is paved with good intentions. Rob, rob, come back brother..... The slippery slope argument is one of the classic logical fallacies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 fukkit, shouldn't the 46% mentioned here all get put on the "kill immediately" list? it's all about killing the RIGHT people, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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