SeanO Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I've currently got a Raven Pro for general mountaineering, but plan on doing some steep snow climbs this summer. I'd like advice on something that can be decent for general mountaineering (plunging, self/boot belays), but also work for steep snow/some ice, and if necessary be paired with a real ice tool for something like Liberty Ridge. Does it exist and what do you recommend? Looks like a few options are the Summit, Sum'Tec, and Venom. What length do you recommend as well to pull double-duty, especially if it's to be effective for self-arrest? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Sum'Tec adze in 59cm length paired with a Sum'Tec hammer in 52 cm length would be the bee's knees for Liberty Ridge and similar routes. Grivel Air Tech Evo or the BD Venom are also good choices but not nearly as sexy as the Petzl tools. \ BITD I climbed Liberty Ridge and many other classic, steep alpine snow and ice routes with a 60 cm SMC Shuksan axe paired with a 50 cm SMC Himalayan hammer. Basically an old school version of the above set up. Edited April 9, 2012 by DPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanO Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 Thanks DPS. Do you find that the Sum'Tec is a bit too curved for secure self-belays/plunging? I checked one out at Second Ascent the other day and it seemed nice with the adjustable hand rest, but the curve seemed more pronounced than the Venom's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I haven't used the Sum'Tec, only fondled them in the store. The upper curve should not have a bearing on the self belay/plunging. I use a tool with a similar curve (Petzl Aztar) and it plunges/self belays/self arrests just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSky Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I like the Grivel Air Tech Racing for that purpose. Mine is 58cm--makes it a little more versatile for me since I'm 6'2"-3". I've historically paired it with a Matrix light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayhawk Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I have a Sum'Tec adze paired with an Aztarex hammer (acquired the pairing just before the Sum'Tec hammer came out) for climbs like you describe. I find that the Sum'Tec actually plunges great. I now use that as my go-to piolet on all but the most tame snow walks. If you try to swing a Raven pick into some hard glacial ice, you'll find that it'll ping off not infrequently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I like the Grivel Air Tech Evo or Carbon...with a hammer to match. I'm 6'1" and use a 48 to 60 depending on what I am doing. 60 is nice on Rainier. But 48cm seems to go every where with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanO Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 Thanks for the responses everyone. Sum'Tec vs. Grivel Air Tech Evo... any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Just my thoughts and many will not agree I suspecct. Like Daniel I have done a ton of classical mtneering like Liberty, Ptarmigan and Curtis Ridges with a classic mtneering axe and one type of hammer or another. Climbed a lot fo WI3 and a bit of WI5 with them as well. So I know the classic tools are easily up to the task. Tools like the Sumtec, Grivel offers one as well (Jorasses?) are neither fish not foul to me. If I want a truely technical axe I want more. Like a Quark, Cobra or Nomic. But for most summer stuff in the Cascades and some of it in Canada I really like a short "classic" axe. The Petzl Summit is good, but the slick shaft on the Airtech series makes some sense as well. Classic pick curves seem easier for me to self arrest with. Bigger heads liek what SMC offers are a LOT easier to self arrest with but the tools are heaier as well last I checked. Hard to go wrong with any of those mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 petzl Quarks rock, if I could afford two sets of tools I'd pick some up, right now I just use Nomics. The rectangular shaft doesn't rotate when I hold it in the low dagger position and drive the picks into the ice like my vipers did (hydroformed shaft). They climb mixed and steep ice like a dream. If you have the income and commit to making a trip or two a year out to montana or up to banff I would definitely buy the more technical tools. Plus, after climbing some real waterfall ice things like liberty ridge will be a piece of cake (at least technically, the length is certainly a major part of the difficulty). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Whatever you decide to get, just make sure you actually use them. There's a special place in hell for those who buy expensive gear and just leave it in the closet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Big fan of the Nomic myself and use it in places I really shouldn't. The extra security and added speed they allow in the right conditions makes them generally worth it. Generally. But easy to make a case for a more classical axe when (heaven forbid) you want to chop a step (with adze and pick) or do a boot axe belay. Both of which I like to do a lot of on mtns like Rainier. Neither is something a Nomis is worth a shit for. For self arrest most can manage with anything from a 45cm up. But the longer the axe the easier it is. 60s cover most any use, a 65 or 70 sometiems even better. I actually practice every spring with my shorties (45/48 and a 50) just to remind myself if you need the axe you'll want to be quick with it and secure. But I think it is a mistake to assume the tools under discussion aren't "real" ice tools, they are. None of them are a Nomic for sure and in the right conditions and terrian a Nomic is sweeet! But most places a mtneer will be going (short of hard technical ice) the "classic" will easily get you up, off and be more useful in many ways the entire trip. There is little hard technical ice in the mtns most of the year. I've climbed Libery for example with a single 55cm straight shafted axe several times mid summer. I hope to do it again in the future with a single Summit or Airtecch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Another vote for the Grivel Air Tech Racing (or the Evo). 58cm should do well on most mountaineering routes if you are around 6'. I really, really like the Grivel pick for a classicish axe. It climbs real ice surprisingly well, as long as it isn't too steep or bulgey. Like Dan and Dane said, pair the Grivel with an ice or third tool (hammer), and you are good for any of the classic mountain "ice" routes. I have had the same combo for the last dozen years (Grivel Air tech Racing, BD Shrike hammer) and they have served me well. Although I am looking a bit dated with all the fancy curved tools in the hills these days.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Just took a look at those Sum'Tec axes....very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I'll inject a more cautionary voice here -- and suggest that for the climbing you're describing, your raven pro is perfectly adequate, and may be paired with an ice hammer for steeper, more technical ice. I wouldn't jump into full-on waterfall tools unless you honestly intend to take up extremely steep/hard ice. You didn't specify the length of your raven pro. Unless you're extremely large, or extremely small, anything between about fifty and seventy centimeters will work for nearly every mountaineering application. For self-arrest, be aware that any tool with a curve or bend in the shaft will make it more difficult to keep the spike clear of the snow -- so if you do invest in a more "aggressive" tool, make damn sure you practice this maneuver, and know what to expect, before you need it. I have to agree with Dane that a 60cm "classic" axe is an excellent general-purpose choice -- short enough to swing for the occasional vertical step, long enough for a cane on any slope steep enough to warrant one. My seventies-vintage 60cm Forrest Verglas (talk about heavy!)paired with a first-generation Chouinard alpine hammer was perfectly comfortable for the Cassin Ridge (1981), and saw its share of WI4-5 closer to home. I wouldn't jump into waterfall ice tools unless you intend to climb waterfalls. But if you really feel compelled to spend some money on a new toy or toys, look very closely at what DMM has to offer. The DMM Rebel has been my tool of choice since 2008. It will, believe it or not handle EVERYTHING - from a boot-axe belay to new-age mixed & dry tooling. Yes, the curved shaft takes getting used to for self-arrest, and might be downright dangerous for that maneuver without disciplined practice. But no tool I've seen even approaches the versatility of the Rebel. Don't take my word for it. Find and demo them. Come to Leavenworth, and you can demo mine. In fact, if you feel compelled to buy, I'd recommend you refrain from buying ANY tool you haven't demoed. but for what you've described, I wouldn't feel compelled to replace what you already have. just pick up a decent alpine hammer -- find an old Forrest Mjollnir and you've struck gold. Its heavy, but you'd never believe how well it works. Gotta wonder why nobody ever made a knockoff after Forrest went outa business... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 the Forrest Mjollnir, I'm pretty sure I've seen those go up for auction on supertopo every once or twice. They're marketed as collectors items! It's the hammer with interchangable picks right? like there's an aid pick, alpine pick, and cleaning pick. I'll have to try and make it over to leavenworth to climb with you for a couple days this summer curt, I miss hearing your stories of yesteryear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanO Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) You guys had to make it complicated... Great information, thanks for the reasoning. To clarify, I'm not looking for a dedicated ice climbing tool, but rather a more general tool that can function as a mountain axe for plunging/boot belays and be paired with a hammer tool if necessary. As in, something that can climb short ice sections in a pinch, but also be good for the general stuff. The intention is to do routes like the TC on Dragontail, Liberty Ridge, etc. I want it to be general enough that if necessary, I can lend out my Raven to a friend for a weekend and have something for myself to use on a general route like the DC. Montypiton (Curt?), thanks for the thoughts and the experience that went behind them. My Raven Pro is 65cm, and I have found it to be too long on a recent steep snow trip (50+ degrees), perhaps because I'm 5'10". I got tired having to raise my arms above my head to plunge it securely. So I'm guessing between 55-60 is good for that. At any rate, the new Air Tech Evo seems to be the perfect combination of the Sum'Tec and Venom -- slightly curved shaft, a little more than the Venom but less than the Sum'Tec; a classic curved pick that also climbs ice well; T rated shaft and pick, which is better than the Sum'Tec and the Venom; AND it comes with a grip near the spike (like the Venom) as well as an optional slider like the Sum'Tec. Very compelling... Any comments on the Easy Slider feature? Edited April 10, 2012 by whitenoise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) just my opinion no leashes on moderate to flat ground snow and wrist leash for steep ground. many will argue against. let the fights begin! Edited April 10, 2012 by genepires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I've also used the Raven Pro with a small Charlet Moser third tool hammer for years on a lot of different routes. I really like how comfortable the Raven is to carry in cane position. I can think of several times where a slight bend in the shaft would've been preferable. This axe looks pretty sweet but I'm a little skeptical about the riveted pick tip. Anyone use one? http://promountainsports.com/index.php/climbing/ice-axes/camp-corsa-nanotech.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 the axe you have pictured looks great to me - the bend of the shaft doesn't look too radical/aggressive... the slider may be overkill for most conditions, but will be very nice to have if you find yourself swinging the axe while frontpointing for any length of time -- the support for the trigger finger works like power steering for the pick. I expect you could use or remove it according to what you expect to be climbing... Keenan - my first Mjollnir disappeared with a partner who insists he doesn't have it... he dropped a picket on that climb, maybe he dropped the hammer, too. I snapped one up on ebay dirt cheap a while back -- worth watching for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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