How much protein?

[rob]

How much protein do you guys eat when training hard? I've heard people throw figures around as high as 3g per kilo, which sounds crazy. I weight about 75, so that would be a lot of protein! Seems like too much.

 

I recently went from like 30-60 grams a day to like ~150 -- and I noticed a huge improvement. But when I spoke with a nutritionist she said 200 grams would be better and I wonder -- really? Seems like a lot.

 

What do you guys think?

[John Frieh]

Protein consumption is only a small part of the bigger picture: are you sleeping in a 100% black room? Are you getting 8 hours of sleep? What recovery practices are you doing on a daily basis? Weekly? Monthly? What is your diet? How clean is it? etc etc etc

 

 

 

 

[rob]

wow, that's a lot to digest. thanks for the long, thoughtful reply, John.

 

If you don't mind me asking, about how much protein do you think you're eating during heavy training periods? Do you use any kind of protein supplements, or just food? For reference, my definition of "heavy training" is currently doing an hour or more of hard, anaerobic intensity per day (intervals, strength-training, force work, etc.), plus one 4 or 5 hour steady endurance workout every week at ~85% lactate threshold (so, still fairly hard). Plus easier recovery days interspersed, etc -- overall, about 10-16 hours a week, depending on the week.

 

Also, what are your thoughts on casein vs. whey? I've heard a lot of talk about "slow protein" and "fast protein" which sounds vaguely pseudo-scientific to me. My nutritionist has recommended I take casein supplements before bed because it's a "slow" protein and should help me from waking up hungry at 3am or eating in my sleep like I have been (funny story), and will help my muscles repair as I sleep (sounds kinda unbelievable?).

 

My diet is already really "clean" -- ZERO processed sweeteners, very few high-GI foods (mostly fruit -- I have a genetic propensity towards insulin resistance so absolutely no white bread, etc.), lots of raw veggies and complex carbs and protein, sprouted-grain tortillas, that kind of thing. About half of my protein is probably from food while the other half is now from supplementation (mostly whey). Also, at her suggestion, I've abandoned the "breakfast/lunch/dinner" model and now eat small meals every two hours.

 

Thanks for the advice -- I'm really trying to take it to the next level but I kind of wanted a second opinion to all this stuff my nutritionist has been telling me. I'm struggling getting even 1.5 or 2 grams of protein per KG, and I seem to be doing better (it's been about 4 weeks now) but I wonder if I need to bother with quite so much (she wants me to take even more). But it sounds like it's probably not worth it?

 

Thanks, man

[Rad]

I'm curious to see what John and other knowledgable people have to say. As a tip from a cyclist cousin, I started Whey supplements a few years ago and it over time it had an impact. I'm probably in the 1.3 to 1.5 range and am not keeping close tabs.

 

As John mentioned, diet is only one of many factors affecting performance. Don't neglect the others. If rock is your preferred medium, I suggest you read Goddard and Neumann's Performance Rock Climbing. They do an excellent job of explaining and illustrating the principles about how to improve technique, mental/psychological elements, and strength (power, endurance, anaerobic, aerobic). Staying healthy and injury-free is an art and science as well.

[boadman]

How many of us are actually limited by our diet? I think unless we're approaching our genetic potential, eating a standard healthy diet is going to get you where you need to be...

[rob]

How many of us are actually limited by our diet? I think unless we're approaching our genetic potential, eating a standard healthy diet is going to get you where you need to be...

 

Yeah, but can you define a "standard, healthy diet?" I tried doing the USDA recommended 56g a day and it really, really sucked.

 

As a cyclist, I can definitely say that my diet has a major impact on my performance, possibly second only to training itself. Actually, climbing too -- it's hard to imagine climbers eating the same way non-athletic people do. Don't your dietary requirements change as you become more active? After all, if our activity level is not "standard" than how can our diet be?

Edited April 11, 2012 by rob

[nordicpunk]

1-1.5 g per kilo is probably about right. Some people will see gains from pounding the protein but it is not the most efficient (or healthiest) way to go. Let's look at your body's needs post workout: The number one concern will be energy stores. So, if you take in only protein, it would have to be enough to first convert to glucose and restore energy balance (and protein is not a good way to do this), then if there is anything left over it can be used for muscle repair/strengthening. This is the major misunderstanding of most athletes. As long as you take in carbohydrates (the best source for replacing glucose stores), you do not need excessive amounts of protein. 1.5-2g per kilo would be on the REALLY high end- like body builder style. Some of the advice here is good- several small meals a day, complex carbs, whole fruits/veggies... but your real concern about protein and improved performance is rooted in post workout feed. Train smart and take in a few carbs + protein after hard exercise. Hope this helps.

[PrincessWookie]

Hey Rob,

 

I'd like to echo John F's post-- good "food for thought" and are really important considerations. I'm a certified fitness trainer and nutritional coach with ISSA (mainly for fun, not my main job), so I've seen that using a holistic approach works the best.

 

You already know what the recommendations are. For me ** and I'm very anal about my approach to nutrition** I get between 1.5 and 2 grams of protein per pound body weight. I weigh and measure food when I get close to a competition (I even have a food scale at work). Also, I will cycle my carbohydrates; that is as my protein consumption goes down I will up the carbs a bit, and visa versa.

 

When I don't get enough quality protein, my lifts will stagnate but I also have to pay attention to my carb intake (carbs in the form of oatmeal, rice, vegetables, some fruit)--I won't have the energy to lift really hard.

 

I'm endomorphic: I don't have a problem keeping muscle but fat likes to stay on my body so I have to watch my carbs. I learned this over many years for me. I cannot eat anything I want, even though I may bike 100 miles or backpack 15 miles in a day.

 

For years I said timing of protein is an important element. You probably all know about the "window" of consuming protein with a simple carb after training (I won't got into detail about pre and post workout meals here). However, there is research declaring that you needn't be concerned about the timing of protein consumption...just get what you need throughout the day. Maybe John F has some experience with this and like to share?

 

 

[rob]

So do you use Casein at night? I've started and it's made a huge difference in terms of the usual "morning ache" I feel. I was pretty skeptical of "fitness nutrition" products, but as I've started training a lot more I've noticed a huge improvement from them.

 

The other biggest improvement was reducing the glycemic load of my meals. I'm personally susceptible to insulin resistance, so maybe it's more important for me than others, but it made a really big difference. I still eat tons of carbs, though

[Buckaroo]

My nutritionist has recommended I take casein supplements before bed because it's a "slow" protein and should help me from waking up hungry at 3am or eating in my sleep like I have been

 

The general rule is don't eat anything within 3 hours before you go to sleep. Digestion interferes with deep sleep and sleep interferes with digestion.

 

You can't fall into stage 4 sleep, (deep sleep, the most restful stage) which happens during the first half of the night, if your stomach is still digesting.

 

When you try to sleep with a full stomach the food eventually vacates the stomach but because you are asleep the stomach doesn't know it's empty and continues to secrete digestive fluids. Hence the waking with gnawing hunger.

 

I also question heavy training on a 24 hour cycle, although there are different schools of thought. You might try a 48 hour cycle or work different muscle groups.

 

Don't know specifics on protein amounts but there is new info that tofu as a protein source is not that good, especially for certain individuals. It's not that the soy beans are bad, although the GMO ones are, it's what the processing does to the bean.

[jon]

My nutritionist has recommended I take casein supplements before bed because it's a "slow" protein and should help me from waking up hungry at 3am or eating in my sleep like I have been

 

The general rule is don't eat anything within 3 hours before you go to sleep. Digestion interferes with deep sleep and sleep interferes with digestion.

 

You can't fall into stage 4 sleep, (deep sleep, the most restful stage) which happens during the first half of the night, if your stomach is still digesting.

 

Do you have any references for this? I've never heard that before.

[rob]

I think it's an old wive's tale? I was so hungry in the middle of the night that it would wake me up. And I noticed a huge reduction in morning fatigue when I stopped going to bed hungry, and my fasting blood sugar in the morning is way better, too

[denalidave]

I think it's an old wive's tale? I was so hungry in the middle of the night that it would wake me up. And I noticed a huge reduction in morning fatigue when I stopped going to bed hungry, and my fasting blood sugar in the morning is way better, too

I have the same, only opposite, issue... I can't fall asleep well on an empty stomach. I gave up fighting it years ago and make sure I eat a snack (protien and/or fatty sweets) before bedtime if I am at all still hungry. Especially if I have a big climb or outing the next day. Lack of sleep is far worse on my body than eating before bedtime. (IMHO YRMV)

[spionin]

seems like this primer does a good job at reviewing some casein and whey basics AND cites a number of articles from reputable peer-reviewed journals: http://www.nutritionexpress.com/showarticle.aspx?articleid=787

the primary literature likely has the numbers for actual mass of proteins that the study participants took in.

 

[Buckaroo]

Different metabolisms react differently. I can't find the reference to the deep sleep problem online, it's in one of my paper books.

 

It is also relevant that your digestion is assisted by gravity, when you lie down it's not getting that assist.

 

Someone that's doing a 24 hr hard exercise cycle is burning a huge amount of calories and these generic guidelines may not apply. Their body is constantly needing to refuel and any break in that is disruptive.

 

A differing metabolism comparison. I cragged with Steve Swensen back in Feb. He eats a huge traditional breakfast, bacon and eggs the whole lot. We get an aerobic hike approach and do some pretty hard mixed climbing. I eat nothing for breakfast and fuel on shot blocks the entire day. He kicks ass with that breakfast, and while I'm not near his caliber I do alright for my age. If I ate that huge breakfast and tried to do aerobics I would probably vomit.

[Pete_H]

I think you're right about different metabolisms and body types. If I didn't eat a big breakfast like Swensen I'd feel nauseated and tired the whole day. I also eat real food all day instead of that processed power shit unless I'm doing super high-exertion high altitude, then the gu an hour thing seems to be best. This protein per body ounce shit is for nerds or people with way more sensitive high-performance systems than mine.

 

 

[Buckaroo]

I think you're right about different metabolisms and body types.

 

Yeah, there's 4 different body types, regardless of exercise, and they all have different nutritional requirements.

[PuddinTame]

I recommend Nancy Clark's Sports Nutrition book. She is an RD, and an athlete herself. As for energy, protein is not the way to go. Your body uses glucose for energy, regardless of body type. It's pure biochemistry. Protein is for rebuilding muscle, and can be used for making glucose, but only in the absence of carbohydrates. If you wake up feeling hungry, it's because you have used up your glycogen stores. The best way to restock them is with carbs. Whole grain for low GI, but carbs nonetheless. Have a little bowl of pasta before bed, its GI is surprisingly low (in the 40s to 60s). BTW, what credentials does your nutritionist have? I, as a grad student of nutrition, have qualms about recommending such high protein amounts. There is really no reason to consume over 1 g/kg body wt, even for endurance athletes such as yourself. In fact, too much protein can create problems with performance. Nancy Clark dude.

[John Frieh]

So do you use Casein at night? I've started and it's made a huge difference in terms of the usual "morning ache" I feel. I was pretty skeptical of "fitness nutrition" products, but as I've started training a lot more I've noticed a huge improvement from them.

 

I know a few athletes that use Casein under heavy training loads but not on a regular basis. If it's morning ache you are using it you might look at your post training session recovery. Are you using a foam roller and/or ice bath? Both are super cheap and I know for me are often the difference between the stairs and the elevator at work. I usually take a foam roller with me on climbing trips for base camp and will use glacial snow for a simulated ice bath. It's really difference between one and two rest days for me.

 

 

[John Frieh]

This protein per body ounce shit is for nerds or people with way more sensitive high-performance systems than mine.

 

In 2007, after several attempts, Ueli Steck finally broke the speed record on the original route up the Eiger north face, climbing solo and belaying himself only for three short sections. No one was really surprised. It is Steck’s backyard mountain (he lives only 30 minutes away), and he had been progressively inching closer to the record, soloing the face for the first time in 2004, in 10 hours, and cutting that time nearly in half by 2006. The Eiger speed record dates back to Reinhold Messner and Peter Habeler’s famous 10-hour sprint in 1969, and such hotly contested records are usually broken by a few minutes, or even seconds. Steck, however, slashed 46 minutes off the previous record, set by the Italian Christoph Hainz in 2003, with a new time of 3 hours 54 minutes.

 

Yet the most remarkable detail of this remarkable achievement came to light after the climb, when Steck visited the Swiss Federal Institute of Sports Magglingen to test his physical fitness. Their finding: Steck was out of shape!

 

Steck had trained harder for the Eiger climb than he ever had in his life, and harder than most professional climbers ever do. He concluded that he—and elite alpine climbers in general—were mere amateurs when it comes to training. World-class cyclists, swimmers, and runners enhanced their training with everything that modern science had to offer. Climbing was stuck in the Stone Age.

 

"Nerds"

[Pete_H]

Yeah. World class swimmers, bikers, triathaletes, and runners are nerds. No offense, nothing wrong with it, but if lots of them weren't pro athletes they'd probably be dentists.

 

Climbers are supposed to be tough not worry about protein per body ounce. You think Bridwell and Donini, etc. give a shit about that stuff. Sure they're an older generation of climbers, but still ... And sure, there's Twight. But Twight's definitly a one off.

[John Frieh]

"As the starting date grew closer many people began arriving in support, including the medical crew and my nutritionist."

 

Yuji Hirayama talking about his preparation for onsighting El Nino on El Cap in Alpinist 8. Page 60

[Pete_H]

With three six-packs of beer in him, he recalls Henry (Barber) went up to try Axis on Arch Rock ... "I fell off a boulder while we were putting on our shoes and went into a pile of rubble below. It was the three sixes, I think."

 

Nevertheless he climbed the route without too much trouble. It was wet in spots.

[rob]

With three six-packs of beer in him, he recalls Henry (Barber) went up to try Axis on Arch Rock ... "I fell off a boulder while we were putting on our shoes and went into a pile of rubble below. It was the three sixes, I think."

 

Nevertheless he climbed the route without too much trouble. It was wet in spots.

 

 

Things change

[denalidave]

I've apparently found out the downside of too much protein. What felt/feels like a broken toe, turns out to be gout and one of the culprits is too much protein. Hurts like hell but comes and goes at random. Any good suggestion for home remedies beside more water & less protein?