Islam

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey Fairweather, why do you think Daniel Ortega's government was evil?

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey, no harm in being called a lefty, or a communist. I have much more sympathy for an intelligent socialist approach to governance than I do for run-away capitalism!

[JGowans]

"All communist governments ARE violent/evil. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pal Pot, Ho Chi Min, Guevera, murderers all."

 

- Those are individuals. Not governments by themselves. In any case, I think my point is applicable regardless of whether we're talking individuals or governments. Semantics.

[sexual_chocolate]

I think Shintoism was transformed into a bit of an amalgam when Buddhism showed up, incorporating aspects into its systems of thought and ritual, similar as to what happened in Tibet.

 

I'm not sure what percentage adhere to Shintoism; is it the national religion? I do know that there are various sects of Buddhism in Japan, such as Zen Buddhism, Buddhism adhering to Hinayana doctrines, Buddhism adhering to Mahayana doctrines, etc..

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey! Che wasn't really a government leader, first of all!

 

And secondly, why would you not like him? He was quite sincere, caring, willing to die for a cause that he believed entirely in- helping the impoverished.

 

In some ways, I think Che was much more an American than most American politicians, in that he embodied principles that this country was (supposedly) founded on; helping the poor, fighting for justice, equal rights for all, etc etc!

[Jake]

 

 

[ 11-24-2002, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]

[Jake]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jake:

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Hey Jake, let's not continue to perpetuate myths, ok?

 

"Myth #1."he kicked out weapons inspectors in '98".

 

Maybe you really didn't know, but Iraq DIDN'T kick out the weapons inspectors. The US forced a pull-out. Granted, Iraq was less than an amicable host, but it's pretty well accepted as fact that the US had planted spies in the weapons inspection team (both US inspector Ritter has spoken of this, along with Hans Blix, head weapons inspector, among others)."

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OK, BUT that is not really the point I was trying to make. What I mean is that Saddam did not follow through on his part of the agreement. He harassed and denied entry to sites the inspectors wished to visit. Essentially, he made their task impossible to carry out. As for the spying, most other countries would take advantage of a chance like this to spy on its enemies (whether or not this is right to do is debatable. Hell, foreign embassies are full of spies and everyone knows it - though they don't have the same kind of access weapons inspectors do. At any rate, the new inspection team is supposed to have a more "international" make up to address these spying concerns.

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"Myth #2: "...Saddam used chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers during the Iraq-Iran War and also on his own Iraqi Kurds."

 

Ok, not really a myth, but its manipulation has elevated it to near-myth status.

Iraq used gas on Iranians with full US knowledge. As a matter of fact, I believe it was Rumsfeld who was in Iraq, shaking hands with Saddam during some of the gassings. But in our zeal to contain Iran, US looked the other way, as not to offend Saddam. During this time, we were also supplying him with arms and various other needs. Only once he invaded Kuwait did our song change. And as far as the Kurds go, I'd liken his treatment of them to our treatment of Native Americans, who we attacked with biological weapons."

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THE IRAQ-Iran War was a case of chosing the lesser of the two evils. Iran had taken the embassy, so it was natural for the US to support Iraq. I don't know about the Rumsfeld bit and the gassings, but the fact remains that Saddam did use the gas. In one sense, I suppose some of the responsibility lies on the US for not doing something to prevent this - however, it seems clear that no country is going to slap someone on the wrist when he attacks their enemy for them. Finally, the UN did condemn the use of gas in Iran, but I am not sure how much the US was a part of this - that will require some research. The claim concerning Indians, though, seems to be a stretch. By biological, I suppose you mean diseases like smallpox etc? The use of chemical weapons on the Kurds was clearly intention and meant to wipe them out. Any biological diseases that killed Indians were: 1. not man made expressly for killing, but natural diseases that Europeans were accustomed to dealing with. The fact that Native American immune systems could not deal with them well is no ones fault. 2. No one ran around trying to kill Indians by passing on diseases - there was no systematic campaign to destroy tribes by infecting them with some European born disease.

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"Myth #3: "What needs to be realized is that as the premier economic and military power in the world, it is the US's job to lead. Otherwise, another country, possibly one that is not particulary friedly to the US, may try to take charge in world affairs."

 

Simply because we are the premier economic and military power in the world does not automatically elevate us into a leadership position; leadership positions need to be earned with the qualities of honesty, integrity, just action, openness, and a willingness to acknowledge past sins, none of which the US possesses at this time, at least regarding foreign policy. Remember, bullies were rarely regarded as leaders, at least where I grew up. Maybe the bully had the idea he was a leader, but whoever he intimidated had no respect for him, and would turn on him as soon as was safe.

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"

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OK, I SEE your point, but I believe that the US does meet many of the qualifications you have laid down. Granted, the US is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but who does a better job? Russia, China, some European state? Maybe you can make the case that say, France, for example, is more honest in foreign affairs (which I doubt), but since it does not have a very large influence on world affairs, it is a nonplayer. Who would you rather have leading, or maybe, should there not be a leader at all? But, if that was the case, would anything get done? Not likely. In Kosovo, for instance, the only reason things ever got done was because the US stepped in after letting the UN and the European nations attempt to stop the violence - which they completely failed to do.

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Sorry for this post being a little messed up - I'm not sure what happened. My paragraphs start with the capitalized words between the dashes.

[Jake]

I am impressed with the quality of the posts on this topic. It is nice to see that some people know something about what they are talking about at times (sometimes, but not often, this group even includes me).

 

[ 11-25-2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Jake ]

[JayB]

I wish I could say that the very nature of Islam made its followers more prone to violence than other religions, but I can't honestly say that that's the case. Read up on the history of Islam a bit and you'll see that Islam only became associated with a high level of political violence when Arab nationalists used their fellow citizen's identity as muslims as a rallying point in their efforts to get rid of the colonial powers that dominated their countries, or the regimes that the former colonial powers installed after their departure.

 

This is not to say that SOC's statements are untrue, but I think that there's a lot going on the middle-east other than Islam that's making the region violent.

 

Good History of the Middle East

 

"A History of the Arab Peoples" by Albert Hourani.

 

Interesting Reading on the Corrolation between Islam and Political Violence:

 

"The Clash of Civilizations" by Samuel Huntington.

[Jake]

 

 

[ 11-24-2002, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]

[RobBob]

quote:

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Man, we sure know how to pick our allies. Here in the last month, it's been revealed that Pakistan shipped nuclear bomb technology to North Korea in exchange for missile technology as recently as this summer.

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Uncle Trickster,

You been smokin that Oaxacan stuff again? We give $6 bn a year to these guys' adversaries...but it's all on "Goatland is a Binary World."

 

One observation I have after viewing a small sample size of middle eastern Muslims (in engineering school in the late 70s): They cheated like Hell. We had two brothers in one classroom that would sit apart during lectures, then side-by-side during tests. The rest of us students knew they were cheating. They were not the exception for the middle-eastern engr students; a bunch of them appeared to be doing that. We figured that if they went back to Iran and their structures fell down, WTF? Maybe that's the attitude our profs took, because none of them were busted for it.

 

Maybe it was the middle eastern culture and nothing to do with the religion, but those guys were unabashed cheaters.

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey Jake, I was alluding to the blankets. The blankets that contained small-pox. Passed out to the Natives. With full knowledge of what would happen. And yes, it WAS genocide. The entire war on the Natives was genocide, carried out more effectively than Saddam's own war against the Kurds. I still do not believe that any administration has fully atoned for these sins of the past. Perhaps neither has the US public.

[Stefan]

Most people of Islam are peaceful people. You only hear about the bad people.

 

Same thing happens here in the U.S. Most people are good people you only hear about the bad people.

[Muir_on_Saturday]

1) organized religion is evil.

 

2) i keep hearing arabs everywhere say the are not against the u.s., they are just opposed to "u.s. policies". i've come to conclude that when an arab says "u.s. policies" it is a euphemism for "people in the u.s. are not islamic fundamentalists".

 

to hell with all of 'em.

[ChrisT]

I think Stefan is right. There are extremists in most religions (except perhaps Buddhism) and they get the most attention. Having been to both Israel and Egypt I would have to say the muslims impressed me as being very friendly and quiet while the Israelis were more of the aggressive "in your face" personalities (and crazy drivers too!)

[Jim]

I think (as Yaya stated way back) that there should be a distinction drawn between some people's interpretation of a religion and what the religious text actually says. I don't think any of the Christian-Judeo religions advise violence, but they have all been used as a pretext. It's interesting why violent people use religion as a rallying cry when the theology has nothing to do with this. It's also intresting why buddasim has avoided this.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

quote:

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Originally posted by Muir on Saturday:

1) organized religion is evil.

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Remember: think first, then speak!

 

"2) i keep hearing arabs everywhere say the are not against the u.s., they are just opposed to "u.s. policies". i've come to conclude that when an arab says "u.s. policies" it is a euphemism for "people in the u.s. are not islamic fundamentalists".

 

to hell with all of 'em."

 

There are shitloads more people than just Arabs/Muslims who are anti-US policy and not anti-America. Kind of like being anti-SUV but not anti-car, or anti-sport climbing but not anti-climbing. Don't forget that this is a hot-button, big money issue for the media right now, so you're getting flooded with fear-mongering reports of Muslims causing havoc. If you think about how many Muslims there are in the world, you're smearing the malfeasance of a few on to a great many.

[RobBob]

I noted the cheating in engr school by middle easterners because I think it is a symptom of a society that does not function well in a higher-tech world. I have noticed a higher incidence of these traits in countries or regions that appear to be more prone to human disasters, incompetence, and bumbling:

 

-a blind eye or higher acceptance of "cheating," especially among elites

-in technical matters a hesitance to deliver factual news to superiors and instead spin news positively

-corruption accepted by society

 

There are only a few evil Saddams and Bin Ladens in the world. There are a Hell of a lot more greedy and/or incompetent people in the world that are responsible for death and destruction. One quick example: The policemen in Mexico City who accidently killed people while chloroforming and robbing them. They didn't intend to kill them. But a combination of greed, incompetence, and corruption caused them to kill just as evilly as other murderers.

[iain]

hund?

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

NEIN!

 

PAHJEN TOPPEN!

[iain]

hund!

[slothrop]

Ha, du hast's verloren, DFA!

 

Ach! iain, der Nichtsbessereszutunhaber, ist noch schneller als ich.

 

[ 11-25-2002, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: slothrop ]

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

[JGowans]

quote:

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Originally posted by RobBob:

I noted the cheating in engr school by middle easterners because I think it is a symptom of a society that does not function well in a higher-tech world. I have noticed a higher incidence of these traits in countries or regions that appear to be more prone to human disasters, incompetence, and bumbling:

 

-a blind eye or higher acceptance of "cheating," especially among elites

-in technical matters a hesitance to deliver factual news to superiors and instead spin news positively

-corruption accepted by society

 

There are only a few evil Saddams and Bin Ladens in the world. There are a Hell of a lot more greedy and/or incompetent people in the world that are responsible for death and destruction. One quick example: The policemen in Mexico City who accidently killed people while chloroforming and robbing them. They didn't intend to kill them. But a combination of greed, incompetence, and corruption caused them to kill just as evilly as other murderers.

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The blind eye to cheating among elites is prevalent in Western nations too. How else do you explain Enron, Tyco, Sotheby's, or even Cheney's questionable business practices at Halliburton?

 

Incompetence, bumbling, and natural disasters occur daily here in the U.S. too. How else could Scott Adams find inspiration for Dilbert?

 

When you start going on about noticing higher instances of these traits, it makes it sound like you've conducted some extensive global benchmarking study into behavorial traits among Muslim nations and compared them to Western nations. I suspect that's not the case however.

 

To draw a parallel, it sounds almost like some middle class white male talking like he knows how to solve the problems of poor inner city black kids.

 

I'm glad to hear your opinion RobBob but to think that we can just sum up these problems in a couple of sentences is not very realistic.

 

[ 11-25-2002, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: JGowans ]

[JayB]

quote:

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Originally posted by JGowans:

quote:

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.

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The blind eye to cheating among elites is prevalent in Western nations too. How else do you explain Enron, Tyco, Sotheby's, or even Cheney's questionable business practices at Halliburton?

[/QB]

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Not sure how the scandals associated with Tyco, Encron, and a few other corportations equals the populace turning a "Blind Eye" to cheating here. The only reason that you're even aware of these situations is because we have institutions in place to detect and punish such behavior. The reason we have them is that the public demands them, which suggests that as a society we have hardly embraced turning a blind eye to corruption as our prevailing ethos. The fact of the matter is that no system for detecting and punishing fraud will be perfect. Take the sheer number of corporations in this country, mix in a bit of human nature and its a given that you'll have a few corporations breaking the rules, and that it will take a while before their activities are detected.

 

And as far as Cheney's activities at Halliburton are concerned, I've been amazed by the sheer number of people who have made reference to these "questionable practices" without having any idea whatsoever what the practices in question were. At Halliburton it was their practice to take projected cost overruns - money that would be owed and eventually paid to them by the folks employing their services - and increase their revenue projections by the amount of the cost overruns. Scary stuff indeed.

 

It's amazing to me to witness some folks on left -who I agree with a lot of the time and on many issues - passionately decrying something like this accounting business at Halliburton in one breath, then shrugging off the 50 million souls snuffed out under Stalin and Mao in the next. Capitalism will never be perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than anything else out there.

 

[ 11-25-2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]