sobo Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 It sounds like alot of parties start at 2 am or even 10 pm from Muir camp. This sounds pretty extreme considering they summit and get down before noon. In the Rockies you have to do this to dodge thunderstorms, but why do you have to do this on Rainier? Do the glaciers get out of condition so severely that even roped and guided travel is dangerous? Or do the guides just do this so that their herds had a good chance of summitting? rainier's a long damn way from a decent bar, and there's happy hour to be considered... Happy Hour is always to be considered in any good climbing plan... alpine starting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Another factor is that Rainier is not the Rockies - there's some big honkin' glaciers here that have their own route-finding, objective danger issues unless you are doing the cattle trail route. An extra margin of safety is a good thing. That said - there are very stong and competent folks who can run up and down in a day. I just don't belong in that group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 An extra margin of safety is a good thing. Ya, but he's gonna have 15 screamers girthitched to his solo belay device to stop him from falling into a crevasse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 An extra margin of safety is a good thing. Ya, but he's gonna have 15 screamers girthitched to his solo belay device to stop him from falling into a crevasse. And a pug. Don't forget the pug... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave7 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 climb high sleep low Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Marmot Prince will be using the "Climb High, Die on the Summit" strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Another factor is that Rainier is not the Rockies - there's some big honkin' glaciers here that have their own route-finding, objective danger issues unless you are doing the cattle trail route. An extra margin of safety is a good thing. That said - there are very stong and competent folks who can run up and down in a day. I just don't belong in that group. Good points. Well it seems theres alot of variety on start times. On the cattle routes I guess I will choose a regular start rather than 2 am start when I'm fit and prepared. And a pug. Don't forget the pug... An important factor to also consider is how early my new mountain pug can get up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Looks like marmot bait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 He should probably also acquire several avalanche poodles to ensure a safe crossing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 whenever I see the OP's name I can only help but to say it in my head as the priest from the princess bride: mawwwment pwwwince! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 The idea is, I can probably make the 9000 foot climb in a day and camp at the summit. The problem with this plan is that I'll probably get to the top in the evening, and crossing glaciers later in the day. This doesn't seem to be normal if people are making 2 am starts, so I'm wondering if there is a serious flaw in a one day ascent that has me the glaciers past 5pm. I have done rainier in a day and still wake up at o'dark thirty on multi-day ascents. There are a myriad of reasons and if you don't know them, you should not be aspiring to a solo ascent of this mountain. I have been involved in several rescues on this mountain and once with a guy who I was tied to during a winter ascent who fell into a crevasse. Instead of knocking people who have actually climbed this mountain, perhaps you should find out why they do it instead of asking a loaded question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have done rainier in a day and still wake up at o'dark thirty on multi-day ascents. There are a myriad of reasons and if you don't know them, you should not be aspiring to a solo ascent of this mountain. I have been involved in several rescues on this mountain and once with a guy who I was tied to during a winter ascent who fell into a crevasse. Instead of knocking people who have actually climbed this mountain, perhaps you should find out why they do it instead of asking a loaded question. A little unfair, I'm asking a question why people do alpine starts on a mountain. If you're suggesting its incompetent not to do one, well looking through the answers, it seems like alot of people don't. I've done alpine starts myself and I know plenty of reasons why to do them. The question is: is there something "special" about Rainier that requires alpine ascents. This is a reasonable question to ask. There are plenty of reasons why you might still be on terrain later in the day, and if that "special" something about Rainier happens, you could be in alot of shit. Every mountain can be very different and even if you've been up a few big ones in one range, going to another range has special problems that even experienced climbers might not know. I don't expect you people to read Socrates but I don't think that questions -> ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Every mountain can be very different Not really. All mountains I know of adhere to the laws of weather, climate, physics and gravity and that sort of shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Every mountain can be very different Not really. All mountains I know of adhere to the laws of weather, climate, physics and gravity and that sort of shit. Not really, but if you think you know all mountains because you can climb one I'm not sure why you are wasting your time here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have done rainier in a day and still wake up at o'dark thirty on multi-day ascents. There are a myriad of reasons and if you don't know them, you should not be aspiring to a solo ascent of this mountain. I have been involved in several rescues on this mountain and once with a guy who I was tied to during a winter ascent who fell into a crevasse. Instead of knocking people who have actually climbed this mountain, perhaps you should find out why they do it instead of asking a loaded question. A little unfair, I'm asking a question why people do alpine starts on a mountain. If you're suggesting its incompetent not to do one, well looking through the answers, it seems like alot of people don't. I've done alpine starts myself and I know plenty of reasons why to do them. The question is: is there something "special" about Rainier that requires alpine ascents. This is a reasonable question to ask. There are plenty of reasons why you might still be on terrain later in the day, and if that "special" something about Rainier happens, you could be in alot of shit. Every mountain can be very different and even if you've been up a few big ones in one range, going to another range has special problems that even experienced climbers might not know. I don't expect you people to read Socrates but I don't think that questions -> ignorance. Yeah, you are attempting to do something that you don't have enough knowledge to safely accomplish. What do you want? Are you a troll or are you that dumb? I have summitted all 14ers in Colorado and was never in as much objective hazard as I was every time on Rainier (except an unexpected storm on the diamond). People tried to clue you in and you are either 1) too stuborn, 2) too stupid or 3) a troll. Either way, I am done with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Every mountain can be very different Not really. All mountains I know of adhere to the laws of weather, climate, physics and gravity and that sort of shit. Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yeah, you are attempting to do something that you don't have enough knowledge to safely accomplish. What do you want? Are you a troll or are you that dumb? I have summitted all 14ers in Colorado and was never in as much objective hazard as I was every time on Rainier (except an unexpected storm on the diamond). People tried to clue you in and you are either 1) too stuborn, 2) too stupid or 3) a troll. Either way, I am done with you. Look, How many glaciers did you cross on the 14ers? I've never been there but the hardest mountain by the easiest route is class 4 and with fifty-four of them that says something. Those peaks are rubble piles on a tall plateau. It's really not informative to tell someone they don't have enough experience when 1. You won't describe the experience you need 2. You don't know the person your talking to I'm not going to reconsider my attempted Rainier trip, because I'm not attempting it, ie, I'm before the stage where you can reconsider. I'm considering, ie, I am not attemping anything. You need to understand I'm perfectly willing not to go if people can explain why it is so extremely dangerous in good conditions if I'm willing to accept the crevasse risk, which people can and do. Mentioning the 14ers doesn't really give me much information. I know they are significantly different than Rainier. I'm from the northwest and where i'm from, the glaciers start at 3,000'. I've travelled on a many glaciers, probably a total of 40 hours on them in the last 3 years, although they much more mellow than Rainier. I've also worked on 40 degree snow for days where a fall would not be arrestable. (now waiting for the inevitable spray which quotes one of my sentences about prior experience out of context) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave7 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Alpine starts are means of risk management while climbing Mt. Rainier. They are intended to allow maximum time climbing on the most stable snow/ice conditions (generally speaking) and allow you to travel through objective hazards (rockfall, icefall) at the times where they are least likely to occur. The more efficiently you can climb (i.e stable snow conditions, climbing ability, and fitness) the less time you are exposed to the objective hazards. Less time exposed to the objective hazards equals more of chance you do not get hit with rock fall or ice fall. More stable snow conditions will you give you better snow bridge stability for some crevasse crossings. Others you may have to end run. I believe every Rainier route listed in the guide book "Mt. Rainer: A climbing guide" lists the rock fall, ice fall, and crevasses as objective hazard. Simply put an alpine start is a risk mitigation measure that you can use to travel safely in the mountains. Experience and knowledge in the mountains is key in order to assess the hazards and risks, determine your acceptable level of risk, and make the best decision possible to climb within your acceptable level of risk without putting others in danger. My personal experience with Rainier has mostly been in the summer time. My last time up the mountain I saw a ridiculous amount of rockfall come off near the cadaver gap area and rain down across the route crossing the cowlitz. This happened mid afternoon and confirmed my plan to start at 2 am the next morning. I am not an expert, just offering MHO and experience on Rainier. I am sure a lot of these guys on CC have a shit ton load more experience than I, and I would listen to the constructive advice they give. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yeah, you are attempting to do something that you don't have enough knowledge to safely accomplish. What do you want? Are you a troll or are you that dumb? I have summitted all 14ers in Colorado and was never in as much objective hazard as I was every time on Rainier (except an unexpected storm on the diamond). People tried to clue you in and you are either 1) too stuborn, 2) too stupid or 3) a troll. Either way, I am done with you. Look, How many glaciers did you cross on the 14ers? I've never been there but the hardest mountain by the easiest route is class 4 and with fifty-four of them that says something. Those peaks are rubble piles on a tall plateau. It's really not informative to tell someone they don't have enough experience when 1. You won't describe the experience you need 2. You don't know the person your talking to I'm not going to reconsider my attempted Rainier trip, because I'm not attempting it, ie, I'm before the stage where you can reconsider. I'm considering, ie, I am not attemping anything. You need to understand I'm perfectly willing not to go if people can explain why it is so extremely dangerous in good conditions if I'm willing to accept the crevasse risk, which people can and do. Mentioning the 14ers doesn't really give me much information. I know they are significantly different than Rainier. I'm from the northwest and where i'm from, the glaciers start at 3,000'. I've travelled on a many glaciers, probably a total of 40 hours on them in the last 3 years, although they much more mellow than Rainier. I've also worked on 40 degree snow for days where a fall would not be arrestable. (now waiting for the inevitable spray which quotes one of my sentences about prior experience out of context) 1) Glacier experience, crevasse rescue, self rescue crevasse training, AMS prevention Glacial route finding, whiteout navigation, wilderness first aid, snow anchor placement, ice anchor placement, rope management skills, how to avoid high altitude ailments like corneal burns, self arrest techniques, escape the belay techniques, shall I go on? 2) Yes I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) 1) Glacier experience, crevasse rescue, self rescue crevasse training, AMS prevention Glacial route finding, whiteout navigation, wilderness first aid, snow anchor placement, ice anchor placement, rope management skills, how to avoid high altitude ailments like corneal burns, self arrest techniques, escape the belay techniques, shall I go on? 2) Yes I do. 1. Those are skills, not experience. It's conceivable to take classes that cover all of those and not be even close to prepared to Rainier. And by the way I basically have most of those down, and also won't be needing the technical ones will I? 2. Spooky. Alpine starts are means of risk management while climbing Mt. Rainier. They are intended to allow maximum time climbing on the most stable snow/ice conditions (generally speaking) and allow you to travel through objective hazards (rockfall, icefall) at the times where they are least likely to occur. The more efficiently you can climb (i.e stable snow conditions, climbing ability, and fitness) the less time you are exposed to the objective hazards. Less time exposed to the objective hazards equals more of chance you do not get hit with rock fall or ice fall. More stable snow conditions will you give you better snow bridge stability for some crevasse crossings. Others you may have to end run. I believe every Rainier route listed in the guide book "Mt. Rainer: A climbing guide" lists the rock fall, ice fall, and crevasses as objective hazard. Simply put an alpine start is a risk mitigation measure that you can use to travel safely in the mountains. Experience and knowledge in the mountains is key in order to assess the hazards and risks, determine your acceptable level of risk, and make the best decision possible to climb within your acceptable level of risk without putting others in danger. My personal experience with Rainier has mostly been in the summer time. My last time up the mountain I saw a ridiculous amount of rockfall come off near the cadaver gap area and rain down across the route crossing the cowlitz. This happened mid afternoon and confirmed my plan to start at 2 am the next morning. I am not an expert, just offering MHO and experience on Rainier. I am sure a lot of these guys on CC have a shit ton load more experience than I, and I would listen to the constructive advice they give. Cheers Thanks for the personal tips about rockfall and your experiences on Rainier. Yup, I know early travel is safer for rockfall and snow bridges, but the specifics on Rainier are invaluable. Edited January 7, 2012 by Marmot Prince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just stay in the tent and you'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Not really, but if you think you know all mountains because you can climb one I'm not sure why you are wasting your time here. I did climb Mt. Si once (well, at least to the end of the trail) so I figure I pretty much know everything about this here mountain climberin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 i remember years back, a dude asked for some advice about doing somethign stupid on mt rainier nolse showed him pic of a corpse being helicoptered off the mtn after doing that exact thign he was proposing dude got pissed, said that was a mean thing to do when he was just asking for advice - said everybody on the board was being a dickhead for not being all supportive i chimed in, told him to ignore such advice meant he'd be in a bodybag before too long too i was wrong - a year later dude WAS dead (on mt hood though), but they still havne't found the corpse sadly, the whole exchange got lost down the memory hole... fuck'em, another damn yankee... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 i remember years back, a dude asked for some advice about doing somethign stupid on mt rainier nolse showed him pic of a corpse being helicoptered off the mtn after doing that exact thign he was proposing dude got pissed, said that was a mean thing to do when he was just asking for advice - said everybody on the board was being a dickhead for not being all supportive i chimed in, told him to ignore such advice meant he'd be in a bodybag before too long too i was wrong - a year later dude WAS dead (on mt hood though), but they still havne't found the corpse sadly, the whole exchange got lost down the memory hole... fuck'em, another damn yankee... link to thread and news story/bulletin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 i remember years back, a dude asked for some advice about doing somethign stupid on mt rainier nolse showed him pic of a corpse being helicoptered off the mtn after doing that exact thign he was proposing dude got pissed, said that was a mean thing to do when he was just asking for advice - said everybody on the board was being a dickhead for not being all supportive i chimed in, told him to ignore such advice meant he'd be in a bodybag before too long too i was wrong - a year later dude WAS dead (on mt hood though), but they still havne't found the corpse sadly, the whole exchange got lost down the memory hole... fuck'em, another damn yankee... link to thread and news story/bulletin? I think that this is the point in time where you silently reflect and re-read your abortion of a post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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