The Jannu North face? + other himalayan big walls?

[Laughingman]

Does anybody know if the coveted North face of the Jannu has been attempted since the russians sieged the wall out in 2004?

 

Also very few of the last of the great himalayan "big walls" have been climbed by Americans in the last decade or so. In the same time frame the Russians managed to climb the big walls on Jannu, Changabang, Pik 4810 (look it up), Ak-Su and countless others. Style aside, is there a fundamental difference in ideology and tolerance for adversity that americans don't have? Or is the russian style of climbing simply better at producing results at the expense of style?

 

below Pik 4810

 

 

Edited October 23, 2011 by Laughingman

[Sol]

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

Exception: Meru Shark-fin

[Julian]

Here's one short form of the answer: more Russian teams are willing to pursue big wall aid climbs in remote parts of the world, especially in the Himalayas which are comparatively close for them (the Pamirs even more so of course), while most North Americans who are aid climbing aficionados (a decreasing breed to be sure) stick closer to home and climb hard aid testpieces in Yosemite, Colorado, Utah, and Squamish, or at least stay in-hemisphere and aid big walls in Patagonia, Greenland, or Baffin Island.

[OlympicMtnBoy]

Having climbed in Russia and run into Russian expeditions in Central Asia, I think there is also a difference in organizational knowledge. The old soviet style of training climbers and more formally organized outings continues in some degree (varies regionally I think) and more of these "Russian Big Wall Project" climbs are able to take advantage of years of expedition experience and older climbers and put them together with younger folks willing to tough stuff out. Most American expeditions today are organized more or less in a vacuum (comparatively) and you tend to see smaller parties which often don't have multiple generations participating, organizing things largely on their own. Or maybe this just points to my own experiences?

[G-spotter]

EVERY DAY I AM TRAINING TO BE STRONGEST CLIMBER

[Hall]

I have climbed with some Russian friends that I met in college for about 10 years. Most of what has been said is true. 1) They are very regimented. They won't climb a 5.9 until they have climbed 20 5.8's. This is a through-back to the Soviet competitive systems 2) "Getting to the top" is everything. They will hang on a climb for an hour, completely wasting themselves, then pull on gear and/or go way off route just to get to the anchors. 3) In Russia, their is very little cragging available (and no dirtbag/weekend warrior roadtripping). Most climbers train by climbing trees or buildings, then go on a 2-3 month "holiday" in the summer to some remote region (Tien Shen, Altay) where they siege their objectives. I am generalizing, of course, but this comes from personal communication.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Hall

[Laughingman]

I am under the impression many of the "russian big wall project" climbs are done in places that don't really necessitate free-climbing (20,000+ feet from sea level in Millet everest boots) Is this true?

 

 

Also has the "russian big wall project" been scraped? Last I checked It was financed by one of the big oligarch (Not khodorkovsky) that are increasingly becoming an endangered.

[John Frieh]

I thought the 2005 AAJ preface succintly summed up why the 2004 Jannu ascent was more a failure than a success.

 

Style still matters. Always has. Always will.

[Laughingman]

I know I am going to be flamed for saying this:

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with the "style" the Russians climbed the Jannu (Not to say I "liked" the style). I just wish they did not leave as much trash on the wall (something like 20+ fixed ropes and several camps). I figure if light and fast proponents want to complain about the style the Russian climbed in then they should go out and prove that It can be done in light and fast fashion (To my to my knowledge Nobody has repeated the route).

 

Also I read that Ueli Steck tried to climb the Jannu North face twice in 2002/2003

if anybody can translate this article that would be helpful

Jannu Nordwand

 

 

Edited October 24, 2011 by Laughingman

[dberdinka]

Thats laughable to call Jannu a failure. Style is completely subjective, topping out is objective and the Russians are better than anyone at that, hell maybe they are the only ones capable of climbing the really massive technical routes at high altitude. Jannu, West Pillar of K2, N Face of Everest, god knows what else.

 

(Sure it would have been nice to clean up there fixed ropes and gear but so be it. That shit will be washed off the wall long before anyone gets close to it again.)

 

I think there are significant cultural differences such that Russians are able to pull off the large, highly organized climbs that western culture and attitudes (everyone goes it alone) simply couldn't pull off. Clearly they are able to suffer as well and do same amazing alpine style ascents (Valerie Babanov on Jannu, Shabalin on Ak-Su)

 

At the same time what have Americans accomplished? Waiting around for perfect conditions that never materialize to run up snow and ice slopes. The recent ascent of Meru-Sharkfin is beautiful but I would gather that shared a lot more in common with the Russian Way than what you think of as alpine style (look at the portaledge and some of the fat shiny bolts in the videos)

 

Blah, blah, blah

[Wallstein]

standing on a soap box is aid

 

 

 

 

[Laughingman]

Currently I think there are very few people in the United States who have the background to do "himalayan big walls". Guys like Conrad Anker, Jimmy Chin, and Renan Ozturk are examples, but they are few and far between. Most of the big wall climbers out of yosemite are not used to the harsh conditions russian big wall dudes are accustomed to.

 

Here is a article about the ascent

Jannu

Edited October 24, 2011 by Laughingman

[Dane]

I have no doubt the Russian climb of Jannu was a harsh human endevor. The ability to suffer might make a climber worthy of praise. It doesn't have any relationship to how worthy the climb might actual be.

 

 

Currently I think there are very few people in the United States who have the background to do "himalayan big walls".

 

That is laughable. There are enough guys on this thread alone that if given the $ for support and time have the skills to do any wall in the world. Your education is lacking.

 

Style does matter. Which is why some (most) choose not to partake in what will eventually be "garbage climbs". No matter how hard or cold they happen to be. The Russian Wall project is a failure. Simply because we are having the conversation. Doesn't matter what they got up. The style they used was already obsolete several decades ago.

 

Imagine going back and aiding Serenity crack on pins now? Same mentality.

 

Climbers have had the ability to climb damn near anything for several decades and many generations.

 

That shit will be washed off the wall long before anyone gets close to it again.

 

Again laughable. Shit doesn't get "washed off". It simply becomes unusable for the most part but certainly a part of the landscape.

 

Bottom line? You either value the resources we do have and treat them accordingly or you do what ever the fuck you think is appropriate to get up it. Your reward..a nice "atta boy" and a month's vacation freezing your ass off. At the extreme, we call the same climbs failures.

 

American's John Roskelley and Kim Schmitz failed to get established high on the wall let alone summit in the spring of 1978 on their two man attempt of the North face of Jannu.

 

In 2004, 26 years later, it took 11 Russians to get up the wall.

 

Climbs get done now solo, or in hrs that were once "impossible objectives". It takes a little man to think his personal objective is important enough to not see even one life time into the future and what the next generation might easily be capable of.

 

Meastri on Cerro Terro in 1970 is a classic example of a garbage climb. If he had actually done what he had claimed in 1959 with Toni Egger the result would have not been noticable on the mtn today. But the style would have. Some still dream more about style than the climb,

 

But then for most (of any generation) it has never been about the climb.

 

Carlos Buhler (who has done as much with the Russians as anyone) sums up the differences of opinion nicely in his AAC artical on Changabang climbing with the Russians.

 

and more here:

 

http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/russianway242/index1.html

 

 

 

[Julian]

American's John Roskelley and Kim Schmitz failed to get established high on the wall let alone summit in the spring of 1978 on their two man attempt of the North face of Jannu.

 

In 2004, 26 years later, it took 11 Russians to get up the wall.

 

That's a bit of a disingenuous comparison unless they were trying the exact same line. Most of the Russian big-wall routes push somewhat contrived directissimas straight up the steepest part of faces at the expense of having to do a ton of aid climbing and fixing. It's debatable whether any climbers or teams would bother to try these lines in another style simply because they would more likely look for paths of least resistance rather than forced lines.

 

Also worth noting in this thread (if we are talking about the history of this wall) is that Tomo Cesen climbed a less direct route up the north face of Jannu in 1990. It didn't happen, some of you say? Prove it. I for one will take Mark Twight and Marko Prezelj's word on that issue until shown otherwise.

 

One thing I dislike about some of the criticisms of the Russian Big-Wall project climbers is that they are easy targets for criticisms by westerners because none of them (or their pals) are likely going to see and/or respond to any of the comments. For instance, their recent ascent of Latok III from all reports was done capsule-style (climbing pitches with portaledge camps in between), and there were derisive comments online about it being a "siege". Meanwhile, Dave Turner climbed a new route a couple of years ago on South Paine Tower in the exact same style, and actually referred to it as "alpine style" without anyone correcting him or raising an issue with it.

[Dane]

Julain my point isn't that the lines were going to be the same. Although the bottom half would have been or close enough. For me anyway.

 

It was the balls to go there and try something they had no idea could be done.

 

The real point is the adventure. If you know you can take enough gear, time and men, you're likely to succeed. If not this year, then next. "Fun" outing and a great adventure but an advancement of climbing? Time has already made that call.

 

More succinctly it is a method of climbing offering nothing to the future.

 

Hard physically? Sure. An advance in climbing...no.

 

Don't assume the world is so large. Most (all?) of the major players in this sport have each others emails and no one is shy about expressing their feelings. It is a small world and eventually everyone ends up meeting in person if they play similar games.

 

Turner? Some how you forget he was by himself? The Russians had 4. You might want to ask yourself the difference between soloing a big wall and capsule style with 4, "in the exact same style". It aint just the numbers. Disingenuous indeed.

[Julian]

So how many climbers are allowed to do a big-wall in capsule style and call it "alpine style" without getting called out for it? Solo only? 2? 3? Is someone going to bust up on Anker, Chin, and Ozturk for "sieging" the Shark's Fin?

 

One thing I will give Steve House credit for is he's consistent enough in his ethics to have the balls to call out Alex Lowe, Jared Ogden, and Mark Synnott for doing so on Great Trango Tower. Most US climbers and media would never had taken shots at Alex Lowe like that, even if they would have at a team of relatively unknown Russians doing a route in the same way. Even Mr. Purity Mark Twight didn't seem to mind Greg Child and Michael Kennedy using (and leaving) a portaledge on the Wall of Shadows on Mt. Hunter, or if he did he kept it out of the passage in Kiss of Kill where he talked about them.

[Laughingman]

 

That is laughable. There are enough guys on this thread alone that if given the $ for support and time have the skills to do any wall in the world. Your education is lacking.

 

I was alluding the fact most big wall climbers in the United States have never done technical aid climbing at 20,000ft+ with a full big-wall rack in horrid conditions and still have have the will to get up the next morning and do the exact same thing. Even give the money and time "most" Americans would quickly give up on such a exposed line on such a big route such as the Jannu.

 

If high level alpinists want to prove that the Russian Jannu ascent is "irrelevant" to modern climbing, they should prove it, go out and climb it in light and fast fashion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2011 by Laughingman

[Julian]

A more general question: what counts as an acceptable venue to do siege-style aid climbing, and what does not? As long as people are honest about the reporting, what does it matter? The Russian big-wall climbs may be "irrelevant to modern alpinism" but if one regards them as big-wall climbing rather than alpinism, then they are no different than a lot of stuff that still gets done on El Capitan. And I know the magazines will only talk about free climbs these days (Ammon McNeely's 2nd ascent of Wings of Steel being an exception), but plenty of new routes have gone up in aid style over the past decade. Jim Beyer put up Project Mayhem on Mt. Thor around the same time as the Russians climbed Jannu, I think. Is one location allowed while the other is scorned, and if so, why?

 

I do disagree with leaving the wall littered with gear though. A team should always remove as much as possible from their climb, and leaving everything fixed on the wall is really poor form. I did chuckle a bit though when reading Steve House's book about how he was ready to leave a pile of rope abandoned on Nanga Parbat that only ended up getting taken down because he and Bruce Miller retreated. Not exactly the kind of behavior he usually advocates.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Julian

[Laughingman]

A more general question: what counts as an acceptable venue to do siege-style aid climbing, and what does not?

 

Got to agree with Julian on this one, the central question we should be asking is what is a acceptable location to do full on siege-style aid climbing?

 

 

Also according to some people on the Jannu expedition, some ropes were removed from the wall.

 

Nick Totmjanin ( one of the summiteers) is quoted as saying:

 

"I went down from the top last. We took down seven ropes above 7400, the portaledge of camp 7400, two ropes above 7000, tent and equipment of camp 7000, the portaledge of camp 6700, some ropes between 5600 and 7000, tent and equipment of camp 5600. We have taken downwards a maximum possible at one time.”

 

Still that leaves 1000M of fixed line of the mountain that is never in good taste(I hate trash on mountains just as much as the next guy).

I also suspect at the bottom of the "big wall" they may have ditched a lot of the gear they stripped from the wall.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2011 by Laughingman

[glassgowkiss]

This topic was discussed ad nauseum at least 50 times on this forum alone. Anybody, who has questions should read "Murder of Impossible" by Messner, http://upwardtrail.multiply.com/journal/item/1/The_Murder_of_the_Impossible or "The art of Suffering" (Mountain # 121 May/June 1988. There is also an old article by Greg Child in Climbing #115 "Between the Hammer and Anvil".

Basically the point made in this literature is that at this moment, the climbing technology improved drastically, hence if you throw enough resources together you will get to the top. The question becomes not about once as a climber/team, but about resources spent.

[Choada_Boy]

Odintsov writes:

 

“Such disagreements legitimately exist between people of different age and mentality, born on different continents. It would be strange if those disagreements didn’t exist at all. Yet there exists a category of people with a firm knowledge of how one is supposed to live. For them, personal happiness isn’t enough; they need to make others happy. To them, it’s absolutely necessary that everyone around them live life by their patterns. If such a zealot is given no power, he is merely amusing and is quite harmless. But God forbid that he is given the means to try out his recipe on others. The Russians are personally familiar with such experiments.”

“The one bad thing,” Odintsov adds, “is that such discussions lead to disunion among people practicing this wonderful sport. Climbers, including their elite, have little association with each other as it is. To the Atlantic Ocean that separates us, do we have to add a swamp of discussion on who’s better?”

[dberdinka]

Heh, heh. Speak the truth comrade!

[dberdinka]

There are enough guys on this thread alone that if given the $ for support and time have the skills to do any wall in the world.

 

I will gladly hold a bake sale for whatever individual on this thread truly has the skills to say with a straight face they could climb one of these lines if only....sighhhh....they had the $$$ and time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tyson.g]

I got mad skills.......just not the balls!

[Choada_Boy]

 

The overhanging wall in the center climbs itself, if only I had the cash.