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Scott_J

trail clearing

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For instance-

 

Build concrete dams and such in the "wilderness" and helicopter in hydrologists and geologists in the backcountry but cannot maintain the trails [Confused]

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quote:

Originally posted by allison:

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which

 

(1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable
[/url]

i love the vagueness and hypocracy right here!!

 

a good example. hetch hetchty reseviour. john muir died the day they started work on that project. sicking. how about seattle's own power project. diablo. or what about the glenn canyon dam? i guess those things blend within the wilderness areas, specially since they are guarded by machine guns and video cameras, just like the wilderness!!! god save larry the tool!! and the permit system and the fee demo project and dirty hippies!!!(for good meausre of course)

 

i sat federal control over land is bah!!! also the constituion(which over rules the wilderness act) states the federal givernment will not hold land or control land, except for limited military use and day to day operations. so TECHNICALLY just like taxes, they are and should be open for debate. which i am not, because no neo-liberal has anything to say that can sway reality.

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I am re-reading the above definition, and somehow the hypocrisy and vagueness are eluding me.

 

It's all right there in black and white.

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quote:

Originally posted by sisu suomi:

...90% of all the people out there are TOO LAZY to venture more than a day hike away from their motel, car, home, TV etc.

A little factoid regarding that...a ranger at Paradise said that over 95% of the people that visit Mt. Rainier never get more than 400 yards from the parking lot.

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Sisu said: I have found that even with the trails cleared 90% of all the people out there are TOO LAZY to venture more than a day hike away from their motel, car, home, TV etc., so if your concern is over "over use" park it.

 

10% of 280 million citizens is still a lot of people. I've been playing around in the backcountry for 30 years, and anecdotal and experiental evidence suggests a large increase in use. What are the chances this year of:

 

Climbing the complete North Ridge on Stuart during a fine weather weekend and not encountering another person anywhere after passing the Colchuck Lake trail?

 

Being the only party camped at Sahale in good weather?

 

Climbing Forbidden without seeing another person for 36 hours?

 

Being the only party at Darrington on the weekend... any weekend you went there for 3 years?

 

I now feel privleged to have done all these, but at the time I took it for granted. I'll agree that most people are not backcountry wilderness users, but over use is an issue, and feeling smugly superior to couch dwelling suburbanites does not constitue a viable wilderness policy.

 

Erik: who do you propose taking over administration of Federal lands? The States? Weyerhauser? Alcoa? Anyone with a big enough gun to enforce their claim? Perhaps we should let everything east of the Cascade crest fall to those east siders who want us moron west siders to stay away... (I know, off topic poke at Dennis & Stewart, oh well).

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off,

 

just making a point. you are right though and you point out an excellent point. who should adminster the public lands?? i truley believe there is no definitive answer to this question.

 

i do not disagree with the collecting of reasources from public lands. it is impossible to do so, mostly because we all wipe our asses and we all(most) live in lumbar strutuces and have metal products. but there are more efficent and enviromentally sound ways to do so. but when it comes down to it as with everything in america it is a monetary answer. this is proven to us with the permit systems and parking passes and user groups.(higlighted pefrctly by the st helens snowmobile sitmo)

 

the states could possibly give a better local perspective on the use of public lands, but unfortuantly they are money mongers too.

 

it is great to sit here and read these debates or read simialr debates in other places. the thing that gets me, is how BOTH sides are wrong. enviros and business. a compromise should be in order, but the selfishness of both groups is sickening. i think the best plan would be for the majority of actual users to tell enviros, the deforrest service and special interests to shut the fuck up and leave our land alone.

 

i read allison exremist leftist remarks on the interpetation of the w.s. 64' and laugh to myself. fuck the trails, that shit was made by man and is as permanent an istallation as the shit houses they helo in there, as the signs the bolt to tress.

 

if we are to truly have wiulderness then we need to keep the non-wilderness hardy people out of there. if your weak ass cannot climb over 57 trees or navaigate a non-trailed area then you deserve to die where you sit down and quit.

 

it is very easy to sit here and type these remarks as it means very little. just as the wilderness act means very little. interpetastion is the key here. once we are dead and the next few generations come in, they will bitch at what we fucked up, and they will continue down the same path we are. americans and humans in general are leeches of the earth. wheter they work(ed) for ENRON or "volunteer" for greenpeace.

 

just as everything humans touch the wilderness is tainted. there is no legacy there only potential business and interetpations to antiqueted laws.

 

so instead of bitching(which is a specialty of mine and very easy to do)

 

GO FUCKING TAKE CARE OF IT YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!

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OW-

sisu is not some young kid and has been out in the woods for over 25 years or more I am sure since he is a partner of mine. A bunch of stats you note might not make a difference to him but who knows.

 

[ 07-22-2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ]

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a lot of the trails i've read and heard about

have been from miners, fire watchers, climber's, game trails (of least resistance), and explorers and indians

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yeah, I understand that's the original source of many trails, but who and when did things get graded, cut, water bars put in, bridges made, signs put up, all that. There's quite a difference between a boot built track and a main trail, and someone did that work, presumably with public money. You know, like the difference between the "trail" into Mt Torment versus the trail to Cascade Pass.

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this spring i talked to some "professial" trail dudes. they're subcontractors that were putting in a freeway up to lake 22. they travel all over the west doing this shit.

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quote:

Originally posted by trask:

this spring i talked to some "professial" trail dudes. they're subcontractors that were putting in a freeway up to lake 22. they travel all over the west doing this shit.

The trail to Lake 22 is already a freeway and gets tons of traffic. I will only go there in the winter and even then meet groups. WTF? Is this part of the Disnification of National Forests? Sheesh!

 

Notice Trask didn't actual say he was hiking! [big Grin]

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I wonder if they would care if someone used a 50 cal to clear the logs. That would be fun. who says you need trails anyway, avvy debris and blow downs keep the gapers away.

 

One other bitch, the deer at cascade pass are totally out of control. My wife and I (illegally) slept on the "grassy knoll" at Cascade Pass over the weekend and were almost stampeeded by a rowdy group of deer. And maybe stop the hanging glaciers of J'berg from calving durring the night.

 

Thanks-

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quote:

Originally posted by Bronco:

One other bitch, the deer at cascade pass are totally out of control. My wife and I (illegally) slept on the "grassy knoll" at Cascade Pass over the weekend and were almost stampeeded by a rowdy group of deer. And maybe stop the hanging glaciers of J'berg from calving durring the night.


Damn that nature!!! There should be a law about animals disturbing tourists' sleep.

 

Greg

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quote:

Originally posted by trask:

actually i've climbed all along

i just didn't want to kop to it
[big Grin]

Oh, say it ain't so! Another cherished misconception exploded... [Razz]

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quote:

Originally posted by trask:

well you bastards' certainly

show no mercy to hikers

if i wasn't such a persistant prick

all y'alls would've run

me off long ago
[big Drink]

my real name is mark twite [big Grin]

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OW, You might know me if you have been around this long, but for now let that be. This wilderness thing is a fucking pile of crap. The the destruction of the Western Washington Coleman cabin, IT WAS FUCKING THERE BEFORE THE WILDERNESS ACT. It was part of the wilderness, it should of been left there. I have seen things like this happen in Alaska, Northern Minnesota, Northern Wisconsin, and Northern "fucking" Michigan. Old timers that had squatted on land for years are now told that their cabin(used for trapping or a drop off on a hunt is illegal and the feds destroy it. BULL SHIT, is what I say. And as for you Allison, the fucking federal government has NEVER given a true statement since Andrew Jackson. At least he had the balls to run graft and bribery in the open and to hell with all the EASTERN know it alls that smile in your face and stick a knife in your back. All that bull shit verbage you display as the god given words of the federal governement is political lingo to be interpreted by some slimy(sorry Matt P no insult to you or my lawyer)federal government solicitor, so the feds can do what ever they want to do at that moment. In other words as the political arena at the time warrents it.(are we liberal this week or are we conservative) Fixing trail should be done to enhance the recreation for the people. By the way OW you are probably right 10% was too big its probably less that .1% and you are right on another step I am superior to the fucking city dweller that never goes forth into the woods and savors its rewards, that could be flesh to eat or trails to walk or things to climb or heavens forbid fur to wear. The wildman has spoken.

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You tell 'em wild man... jeez thats the most acurate political statement I have read here yet

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And I am a life member in the NRA. (for all you bunny huggers out there that's the National Rifle Association)

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Easy there Sisu, I’m not trying to grab that bloody haunch from your hands, and I’m not trying to have a screaming fight with you, but I would like to have a conversation.

 

You think wilderness designation is a “pile of crap,” but I’ll argue its been a tool that has preserved a significant chunk of the topography you and I both value. Go take an aerial tour of Vancouver Island and tell me that difficult terrain alone deters resource extraction. Would it please you to have the entire range look like Snoqualmie Pass? Wilderness is not something the Feds are using to thwart you, the recreating public, but something forced on the Feds by conservationist organizations (who do represent a significant percentage of the people) to thwart development interests. It is an imperfect tool, and some “collateral damage” does occur to people caught up in the gears, but I think it doesn’t invalidate the whole Wilderness Act, in much the same way that dropping a bomb on some innocent Canadians doesn’t invalidate the whole Afghanistan action.

 

I do agree that the vigor with which the Wilderness Act is wielded depends on who’s in charge, but no one ever seems to adopt the populist position, which I interpret you as supporting: “Fixing trail should be done to enhance the recreation for the people.” And I’m with you on that, its one of the things I would like to see the Federal Government spend my money on. The only problem is the question of who is defining “recreation.” I favor the muscle powered form, and I think you do too. Someone else would argue that “recreation for the people” means I should be able to ride my quad to Goat Pass and use my dirtbike to explore the Enchantments. The Wilderness Act is one of the things that prevents this, it seeks to define what is “recreation for the people” for some areas.

 

There’s a whole other thread’s worth of topic on the flawed Western concept of Wilderness, which is a landscape without human impact or presence. Fact is, people have been a presence in these landscapes for thousands of years. The classic example is Yosemite Valley, which so captivated John Muir. Those great meadows were in fact the product of human intervention, intentional fires that the natives set which controlled the growth of the pines but preserved the big oaks, which were a food source. Since it wasn’t plowed, no one understood that it was in fact agriculture. I think people do belong in wilderness, and I think the whole business of trying to manage designated “Wilderness” as an area of no human impact is the kernel at the heart of this whole matter.

 

My primary hesitation in condemning the restrictions on tools for trail maintenance is based on a fuzzy concern that the issue is one of precedent, which is more about legal shenanigans than common sense. We can condemn lawyers for this mess, but really its about various forces trying to bend the rules to get what they want, and lawyers are just the tool. The lawyers on my side are of course the good lawyers.

 

Anyway, I think we agree in principal, but not on specifics, and even I’m not so foolish as to think I can change your mind. I’m sure you’ll let me know just how egregiously I’ve misinterpreted what you meant, but hey, say it, don’t spray it.

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Very well said OW. It would be nice if common sense ruled the day but as you said....

 

Of course, eventually these wilderness areas will probably not be able to withstand an increasing population seeking lumber, land, water, minerals, etc., seeking their piece of the American dream.

 

Ooops, did I actually say the "P" word? How un-PC of me, I should be shot! [Frown]

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