trail clearing

[Scott_J]

I am just shocked at the regulations that the forest service crews have to follow to clear a trail in a "wilderness" area. Using only muscle powered tools to clear and repair the trail system is a joke. No helicopter support, no four wheelers where it is feasible, what the hell are the powers in the NFS thinking? Inventions to make work go faster and easier is what America is all about. If we wanted to use only the methods I have seen in the last few days why don't we send the administrators of NFS to all the countries that end with ...stan and let them issue orders there. Jesus H. Crist this is supposed to be the most technologically advanced country in the world and we handcuff our NFS workers like this. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!!!!! How can the "wilderness" rule be changed????

[Dennis_Harmon]

Funny that the lumber jack-offs can use chain saws in our forests...but we can't in order to clear trails of blowdown. Always wondered about that one myself. Suppose it could be monetary? Dennis

[Off_White]

Actually, I believe that rule is only in designated wilderness areas, which are by definition off limits to logging. The Forest Service is not really known for its restraint of the mechanized world. Sisu, which trail are you talking about?

[Scott_J]

Trail into Surprise Lake up in Stevens Pass. And you are right if its "wilderness" then its off limits to power tools and equipment. Which I think is absolutely ridiculous. There are many trails this year in the "wilderness" areas that have wind blow and avalanche debris all over them and the NFS is limited to using turn of the century tools and technology to do the necessary repairs. WHERE THE FUCK DID COMMON SENSE GO?!? Make the repairs as fast as possible with the technology of today and if the little prisses who want to get in touch with nature get mad send them to Alaska's Bristol Bay with some salmon oil and honey to coat their gear with before dropping 'em off. Then they can really get in touch with nature.

[Poseur]

Tell it!

[mattp]

I would agree that it does seem to be an idiotic interpretation of the wilderness act, but I haven't looked at the words of the act itself and investigated how the resulting rules were created. Does the Wilderness Act say there shall be no mechanized equipment? Is that why mouintain bikes are not allowed but horse packers are? Is this an unfortunate mistake of an over-simplistic act of congress or is it a conspiracy (horse packers make money and have friends in the USFS whereas mountain bikers do not). I bet the guys running the trail program in Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest would not be against using chainsaws.

[pope]

There's a blow-down on the Porcupine Creek side of Cutthroat Pass that would take two weeks to clear WITH POWER EQUIPMENT!

[Mike_Collins]

Common sense should be the guide here.The Downey Creek/Bachelor Creek trails have deadfall that will only be cleared by power tools. No one is going to go in with a six foot crosscut saw to work half a day to saw through one 4 foot log. Is the concern noise? The navy jets that scream overhead DAILY are more disruptive to the tranquil lives of the wildlife.

 

[ 07-21-2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Mike Collins ]

[allison]

No motorized or mechanized equipment is allowed in the Wilderness areas, including bicycles, chainsaws, and even wheelbarrows. Local land managers are allowed to authorize the use of power tools (eg chainsaws) in the case of heavy blowdown situations, and other extreme circumstances. I believe they did this after the Rat Creek Fire in '95, and there is periodic evidence of it on Wilderness trails, if you're looking carefully, you will see it. What I don't know is if there are any limitations as to how often these waivers are, or can be, written. If anyone from the FS or other knowledgeable folks can elaborate or correct me, I'd like to know more about the waiver situation. Oh and FWIW, helicopters are used for TM in Wilderness. They drop materials for big projects like bridge-building, and they are used to clean the toilets in some places, one example of the latter being the Enchantments.

 

I think it's good to keep in mind that the Wilderness Act was intended to preserve parts of our nation's land, not primarily for recreation, but as part of our natural legacy. There's a fair argument here to be made that there be no manmade incursions, no matter what the nature, in these lands. That would mean the end of maintained trails and fixed anchors. While I seriously doubt that will ever happen, it would perhaps be the most essential interpretation of the Act.

 

Whether one agrees with this philosophy or not, that was the intent of the Act. Sure, it's inefficient, and I suspect no land manager would differ from that perspective, but you've got to look at what the Wilderness Act's primary purpose is before jumping to any conclusions about the current state of the trails and routes contained within the system.

 

[ 07-21-2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: allison ]

[not_a_climber]

I guess we need to decide right off if we are going to have trails in wilderness areas. If my (escalating) parking fees are going to support this trail maintenace, then it seems the maintenance should be done in an efficient manner and the wilderness managers should be able to choose their tools based on that. The wilderness remains wilderness whether the blowdowns are cut by a handsaw or a chainsaw and the person going through the next day isn't going to know the difference. It would be a shame that at a time in which I'm paying more for trails than I ever have, that we start losing them due to handwringing over hairsplitting.

[lizard_brain]

Quit crying you pussy, and climb over the tree. It's a fucking wilderness area. Obviously wilderness areas are more than you can handle. Now go walk around Greenlake.

[not_a_climber]

Green Lake?

[Dennis_Harmon]

Dang! Lizard Brain...that was an interesting (and rude) comment all at the same time. Care to go wash your mouth out with soap now and then come back? We're writing about different approaches to wilderness management here...and that's the best you can come up with? Go back to school! What an idiot... Dennis Harmon

 

[ 07-21-2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Dennis Harmon ]

[lizard_brain]

I see my point went right over you head. I knew I should have kept it simple. Oh, well....

 

And I apologize to the thread police for not sticking exactly to the topic. Sorry.

[Dennis_Harmon]

Not A Climber, Don't pay them a darned nickle! I assume that you're an American citizen...which means that you're an owner of that forest. Dennis Harmon

 

[ 07-21-2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Dennis Harmon ]

[Dennis_Harmon]

"...went right over you head." The prosecution rests its case, your honor. Dennis Harmon

[lizard_brain]

Using a typo to defend personal insults? Man, that's desperate. Now please get back to the topic or I will call the thread police and have them bring over the hair shirt for you.

[Szyjakowski]

saw like ten cars up the clear creek road in dtown not all were climbers....sun bathing bikini girls other unseen suspicious naked chicks by my buddy sisu in the ck crossing. and many other upstanding hardworkin americans using the woods and that road is a piece of caca.. what the fuck is right.

why don't those fcircus personal fix a damn road even......

[mattp]

Mike, I agree with you about common sense. However, I would point out that two guys with a sharp crosscut saw and a good place to stand can cut a downed 4' log in about 15 minutes. The technology is simple, but it does work.

[Scott_J]

You know chain saws are small enough nowadays that one could be stowed in a large expedition type pack. A buddy could bring the gas and with all the new diode head lamps I bet(I have logged as a kid when I was going to college)I could remove a bunch of dead fall during the night when old smokey the ticket writing ranger was asleep. I have thought of this real hard and its it very tempting. I have to hold myself back here about the "wilderness" people. Got to keep in control, can't go ballistic, AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW As for the Navy jets I LOVE 'EM. ISN'T AMERICA GREAT. KEEP THEM IN THE AIR AND DOING THEIR BEST.

 

[ 07-22-2002, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: sisu suomi ]

[lizard_brain]

quote:

---

Originally posted by not a climber:

Green Lake?

---

Speaking of staying on topic…

 

Green Lake – It’s level, paved, and maintained. What I’m saying (and I’m speaking in general - not referring specifically to you, sisu), is how much engineering does one need to enjoy their “wilderness experience”? What’s the purpose of a wilderness area? Do we really need to have every obstacle removed at a moments notice? Part of the reason I was so reactive was that I’ve gotten used to thinking of being outdoors as being off-trail (and sometimes off-route), and part of the experience is dealing with the environment as nature left it – without amenities such as paved trails and bolted routes. Yes, I understand the points made about the philosophy behind the Wilderness Act, and the by-the-book method interpreting it. But I also wonder if building foot-traffic freeways through what little is left of our (somewhat) untouched wilderness areas won’t just do more to increase over-use and speed their demise. Yes, I am selfish about this. I know that I am willing to go where a lot of other people won’t go because the natural environment hasn’t been sufficiently modified to make it easily passable. And I wouldn’t mind keeping it that way.

[erik]

i would have to say that the back log in clearning and repairing trails this year is in direct relation to the forrest demo parking pass...has anyone else not figured this one out?? it is pretty blatlently abvious that that is the situation. i am sure you can call the ranger offices and make a complaint and you would hear something about having not enough money or workers, because of the lack of funding. they are trying to 'prove' to us that we need the parking money.

 

it is bullshit.

 

wilderness act is a great thing. though like most broad sweeping laws there is and will be many interpetations. i read on thing above saying that the wilderness is out heritage. WRONG it has nothing to do with americans, it is what belongs to the earth not us or the usfs or the nps or the wilderness society. we have the provalage the ability to travel there, that is all. to claim ownership or claim control over it, is selfish and assine.

[Scott_J]

AMEN, ERIK. Say bible.

Lizard, this is for you. I have found that even with the trails cleared 90% of all the people out there are TOO LAZY to venture more than a day hike away from their motel, car, home, TV etc., so if your concern is over "over use" park it. Americans as a whole are a lazy bunch of couch warmers that would rather go to the fridge get a beer, pack in some potato chips, watch TV and maybe let the dog out unless they put in a doggie door so they don't have to move.

[Cpt.Caveman]

sisu suomi I agree. Those are dumb tactics and the managers should know better on what and when to maintain certain trails with power equipment. It's the goverment and they move like molasses in january.

[allison]

Here's the definition of Wilderness, as defined in the Act:

 

Definition of Wilderness

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

 

The full text of the thing can be found here