be careful this spring

[DPS]

What happened to Godzilla? Its been a couple of years since I have climbed at Index.

[JasonG]

Frost wedging can move large blocks over the course of freeze thaw cycles. It's a pretty safe bet to never say never in terms weathering on cliff faces.

[Raindawg]

"How much strip-mining and quarrying had to go on so you could assemble that trad rack that allows you to climb "clean" and be "low impact"? Or does environmental degradation only count when it's nearby?" - Julian

 

Thumbs up.

 

What guys like you never seem to understand is that while it might be difficult to control some of the bigger forces that impact the environment, you do have control over your own behavior on your own scale. Because someone else is making a bigger mess doesn't excuse you from taking responsibility for your own impact of whatever size.

[Julian]

How is creating economic incentive for environmental degradation through material demand any better than just going out and doing it yourself?

[DRep]

Frost wedging can move large blocks over the course of freeze thaw cycles. It's a pretty safe bet to never say never in terms weathering on cliff faces.

 

Or... Some dude car jacked it off. He doesn't post on here but maybe he could come on here some time and explain himself. It would be nice to hear his logic.

[rob]

I thought my forensics pretty much established it was blasted off. Re-read the thread.

 

[edit]

Oh, and cut out the stump.

Edited March 24, 2011 by rob

[Tyson.g]

"you do have control over your own behavior"

 

Yep I do.

Now, how about you let me exhibit my control as I wish.

Shall we let this post go back to the original topic or shall we allow you to turn it into yet another soap box lecture on how you feel everyone should behave?

[Raindawg]

"you do have control over your own behavior"

 

Yep I do.

Now, how about you let me exhibit my control as I wish.

Shall we let this post go back to the original topic or shall we allow you to turn it into yet another soap box lecture on how you feel everyone should behave?

 

 

Grow up dude....really, grow up. No one requires that you agree with me and no one requires that you behave in a certain way. I originally expressed my perspective, from an environmentalist viewpoint near the beginning of this topic, and was quickly attacked. If you've heard it all before, too bad....you aren't the only one reading this and I'm not just addressing YOU. Are you afraid of ideas that don't match your own???

 

Frankly, it's an embarrassment to witness how much resistance there is in the climbing "community" to widely recognized basic low-impact outdoor-pursuit principles. I guess that the ethic of not chopping up stuff and not being able to drill permanent installations at will whenever or wherever on pubic land might take away some of your best fun?

 

Back to the original: O.K....my opinion is, once again....don't chop the stump. If you can't handle the risk, then get some better spotters or climb on some other boulder where the landing is more gentle and the requirements for your entertainment have less impact. Wow! Radical!

[rob]

Frankly, it's an embarrassment to witness how much resistance there is in the climbing "community" to widely recognized basic low-impact outdoor-pursuit principles. I guess that the ethic of not chopping up stuff and not being able to drill permanent installations at will whenever or wherever on pubic land might take away some of your best fun?

 

Dude, everything is a crusade with you. Cutting out an old stump a stone's throw from a freeway equals "drilling permanent installations at will whenever or wherever"??? LOL Jesus Christ, now I want to cut out the stump just to spite you.

[Dane]

"I hate tearing up vegetation for something as selfish as climbing a rock"

 

Seems you answered your own question.

[Raindawg]

Dude, everything is a crusade with you. Cutting out an old stump a stone's throw from a freeway equals "drilling permanent installations at will whenever or wherever"???...now I want to cut out the stump just to spite you.

 

Really? Are you, like, in Jr. High?

Clueless you are.

 

[Tyler_Durden]

Grow up dude....really, grow up. No one requires that you agree with me and no one requires that you behave in a certain way. I originally expressed my perspective, from an environmentalist viewpoint near the beginning of this topic, and was quickly attacked. If you've heard it all before, too bad....you aren't the only one reading this and I'm not just addressing YOU. Are you afraid of ideas that don't match your own???

 

Frankly, it's an embarrassment to witness how much resistance there is in the climbing "community" to widely recognized basic low-impact outdoor-pursuit principles. I guess that the ethic of not chopping up stuff and not being able to drill permanent installations at will whenever or wherever on pubic land might take away some of your best fun?

 

Back to the original: O.K....my opinion is, once again....don't chop the stump. If you can't handle the risk, then get some better spotters or climb on some other boulder where the landing is more gentle and the requirements for your entertainment have less impact. Wow! Radical!

 

Rainmutt, either you're the biggest troll going on cc.com, or you're the biggest cop-out on record.

 

You're no different than the rest of us who pick and choose their ethics on what is convienent to their passion. The fact that you dismiss such things such as roadways and deforestation to pave the path to your favorite crag, tradworthy as it is, is laughable.

 

 

Grow up yourself. It's a stump. Dead. Get used to it.

 

"Really? Are you, like, in Jr. High?

Clueless you are."

 

What are you fucking Yoda now?

[Dane]

What is laughable is some here are so clueless as to think that what ever fits their current idea of "OK" is anything more than a momentary whim.

 

The original poster recognised the fact.

 

Climbing is selfish...hell we all know that. Taken to the extreme what we get is chipped and drilled holds, denuded bouldering areas and jacked columns of basalt or flakes off an alpine wall....'cuz it was "OK" at Index or Vantage.

 

Lot of good reasons to leave a stump. Common practice in almost every environmentally aware situation in my yard according to King County or on an sub alpine hill side.

 

Only one reason to wack it. The boulder has been done already...no one died. Seems the rest of us could put on our big boy pants and climb it (or not) with out removing the stump.

 

I suspect most argueing for stump removable (like i give a shit about the stump) would also argue adding fixed pro to previous routes is OK. If not for the stump, how about a nice chipped hold so we can avoid ground fall from the lip?

 

Fook it, the boulder is too hard and I might get hurt on the landing...just bolt up an aluminum ladder them most of us will be saved the humiliation and pain of failure. Fook the stump it is in the way of my ladder.

 

Same knuckles that want to chop the stump likely leave TP strung across hither and yond as well cuz some one has to clean your ass for ya.

 

How about climbing sheet and leaving ZERO impact? That ever occur to anyone? That way your kid's kids might get a chance to climb something "new".

 

Beautiful aint it? Oh, sorry come back in 50/100 years. Washington state btw.

 

 

[Raindawg]

Rainmutt, either you're the biggest troll going on cc.com, or you're the biggest cop-out on record.

 

Start your reply with an insult?

No trolling....I actually believe the ethical opinions I share here

whether you care for them or not.

 

You're no different than the rest of us who pick and choose their ethics on what is convienent to their passion. The fact that you dismiss such things such as roadways and deforestation to pave the path to your favorite crag, tradworthy as it is, is laughable.

 

What's laughable is your incomprehension.

I don't dismiss deforestration, strip-mining or whatever, but if you bothered to read what I stated above, I do promote that one should be responsible for their own behavior on whatever scale, no matter what the road nearby means to you. It's your choice to make a lesser impact or not. Pull a stump for some "minor deforestation", or cut trees "so the wall will dry out faster" (ala Index) or create a new "social trail", or bolt yet another line next to a crack system (visit Vantage). It's your choice but don't expect everyone to approve.

Pick and choose my ethics? Believe it or not, there is a system to it and much of it has been around for several decades now and is commonly understood and practiced by many other outdoor pursuits.

 

What are you f*cking Yoda now?

 

Articulate and classy you are!

[Raindawg]

P.S.

 

What Dane said!

[Tyler_Durden]

So I'm seeing Raindawg (environmentalist) on common ground with Dane (one who drytools on rock). Striking. HOW ABOUT THAT!!!

 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=594375

 

Here's a TR, with your name in it. I wonder how many miles of old growth timber was downed to make it easier to achieve this location?

[Dane]

Dude I have done all kinds of stupid shuff. Including cutting trees and brush to get to a climb.

 

Logger's Ledge on Castle Rock was named for a reason. There was once grass at the base of Damnation and Angel. Not like this is a new discussion or one dead stump really matters. It is the IDEA that matters. And it needs to start some where.

 

I haven't added bolts to trad lines or out right chipped a hold. But I have wanted to. It is a fine line. And I dry tool now if I am capable of the pull up. Most of that in the alpine if I do leave a mark..few will ever see it. Generally, like 99.9% of the time there is no mark to see.

 

I'm climbing in France right now...easy enough to see the end result of what "out of control" environmentally is here. Be happy to supply the picture.

 

Old school these days. I still burn my TP and bury my shit under a rock. I don't shit on rocks, stir it up and hope that Gawd will magically blow it away before the next climber comes by. I don't generally trundle boulders or knock loose stuff off a route unless it is actually called for.

 

Back to "the stump". Leave it or chop it...just beware of why you decide to do one or the other.

[genepires]

What is laughable is some here are so clueless as to think that what ever fits their current idea of "OK" is anything more than a momentary whim.

 

How about climbing sheet and leaving ZERO impact? That ever occur to anyone? That way your kid's kids might get a chance to climb something "new".

 

Beautiful aint it? Oh, sorry come back in 50/100 years. Washington state btw.

 

 

Dude I have done all kinds of stupid shuff. Including cutting trees and brush to get to a climb.

 

Most of that in the alpine if I do leave a mark..few will ever see it. Generally, like 99.9% of the time there is no mark to see.

 

Old school these days. I still burn my TP and bury my shit under a rock. I don't shit on rocks, stir it up and hope that Gawd will magically blow it away before the next climber comes by. I don't generally trundle boulders or knock loose stuff off a route unless it is actually called for.

 

Way to flip flop of the topic. First one offers "leaving ZERO impact" and the second shows how you leave lots of impact. This is not just the regret of a past but you still do it. Hypocritical.

You bury your poop under rocks! Get wag bags, carry your feces home and put it into the dumpster please. Bury it in good soil where it will degrade biologically. Leaving feces under rocks contaminates the drinking water for a long time. Common "Leave No Trace" principals here.

 

how did this discussion get from cutting a small dead stump to shit? It always comes back to shitting.

[genepires]

Dude I have done all kinds of stupid shuff. Including cutting trees and brush to get to a climb.

And I dry tool now if I am capable of the pull up. Most of that in the alpine if I do leave a mark..few will ever see it. Generally, like 99.9% of the time there is no mark to see.

 

Old school these days. I still burn my TP and bury my shit under a rock. I don't shit on rocks, stir it up and hope that Gawd will magically blow it away before the next climber comes by. I don't generally trundle boulders or knock loose stuff off a route unless it is actually called for.

 

Back to "the stump". Leave it or chop it...just beware of why you decide to do one or the other.

 

P.S.

 

What Dane said!

 

the dawg agrees!

 

(yeah it is out of context)

[Dane]

Fuckmerunning Gene. Different ways to crap in the mtns. Bags, cans, out houses, crevasses, pit toilets and freakin rocks. I'd prefer my crap under a rock not on top of one in a well used climbing area.

 

Situational awareness goes a long ways...even on the Internet.

 

Most would if you come to someone elses shit. People in glass houses and all.

 

Hypocritical? Look up the definition.

"1. a person who pretends to have virtues"

 

What little virtue I developed over time generally came from being educated to the facts. I leave stumps in the ground now and don't crap where it will so easily and grossly effect the climber after me.

 

 

[matt_warfield]

Not to disrupt the current discussion but spotting is a skill that requires careful thought and continuous attention to the consequences of a fall from any position on the problem.

[genepires]

???

 

I no read good. Not sure where you are going with your post.

 

I also no understand "hypocritical" good.

 

BUt how about if we all make a virtue and carry out our own poop. Emergencies are emergencies but the planned open poops are gross. This is coming from a personal experience where I was sitting down after a pleasant hike up to the summit of temple, I moved a rock to put my hand down (sitting down and leaning back if that makes sense) and unknowingly put my hand right on a pile of human crap. Ruined my good day and scarred me to this day. A well used climbing area is even more important to carry it out.

 

It was a valuable lesson for acon-choss-ua though. That place is littered with poop bombs under every rock larger than a frisbee.

 

My last gross incident involved one well known old man climber who unloaded within a couple feet of a running creek in the ghost range. I think he used a stick to wipe his ass too. That didn't ruin my day but I don't drink calgary water either.

 

why can't I stay away from poop conversations?

[rob]

What is laughable is some here are so clueless as to think that what ever fits their current idea of "OK" is anything more than a momentary whim.

 

The original poster recognised the fact.

 

Climbing is selfish...hell we all know that. Taken to the extreme what we get is chipped and drilled holds, denuded bouldering areas and jacked columns of basalt or flakes off an alpine wall....'cuz it was "OK" at Index or Vantage.

 

Lot of good reasons to leave a stump. Common practice in almost every environmentally aware situation in my yard according to King County or on an sub alpine hill side.

 

Only one reason to wack it. The boulder has been done already...no one died. Seems the rest of us could put on our big boy pants and climb it (or not) with out removing the stump.

 

I suspect most argueing for stump removable (like i give a shit about the stump) would also argue adding fixed pro to previous routes is OK. If not for the stump, how about a nice chipped hold so we can avoid ground fall from the lip?

 

Fook it, the boulder is too hard and I might get hurt on the landing...just bolt up an aluminum ladder them most of us will be saved the humiliation and pain of failure. Fook the stump it is in the way of my ladder.

 

Same knuckles that want to chop the stump likely leave TP strung across hither and yond as well cuz some one has to clean your ass for ya.

 

How about climbing sheet and leaving ZERO impact? That ever occur to anyone? That way your kid's kids might get a chance to climb something "new".

 

Beautiful aint it? Oh, sorry come back in 50/100 years. Washington state btw.

 

 

Huh? Cutting a dead stump next to a freeway equals clearcutting wilderness and spoiling climbing locations for our future generations? Cutting an old stump out from the landing is the same as bolting an aluminum ladder? LOL! How much cleaning do you think has gone on at Index? You're funny.

 

HOLY SHIT, someone's been smoking some good shit. There is some serious logic chaining there....cutting a stump next to a freeway = logging = raping wilderness = no more climbing for our children = bolting. Well done!

 

I guess you don't believe in scrubbing climbing routes, right? Hey, all that moss is indigenous. Why should we devegetate the rock just to climb it? You scrub that moss off, and next thing you know, WIDESPREAD LOGGING AND BOLTING!!!! OMG!

Edited March 24, 2011 by rob

[Dane]

"There is some serious logic chaining there....cutting a stump next to a freeway = logging = raping wilderness = no more climbing for our children = bolting. Well done!"

 

Thanks kinda liked where that went myself "Do it for the children" always seems to impress the teenagers.

 

Trees, stumps, boulders, grass, holds, bolts, brush...move 'um, cut 'um, add'um, shit where you want, how you want, makes no matter to me.

 

 

[jmace]

manicuring bouldering landings is lame, sack up.

 

well said Dane!