What internet inaccuracies lead to!

[glassgowkiss]

This my point on stupid writing on blogs, web sites and such media, where there is a continuing downward spiral of almost toxic proportion inaccuracies. Subsequently they lead to a complete distortion of history. The problem is that climbing started way before internet, a lot of material is still in printed form and several aspiring websites don't even bother checking some basic historical facts and statistics.

A classic example is a recent campaign of misinformation regarding winter ascents of 8000m peaks. TNF journal presents material, like climbing tallest peaks was invented by NF sponsored team and nobody else did anything before. As the matter of fact terms like "pioneering ascent" makes it to such websites as www.explorerweb.com. The truth is that recent first winter ascent is nothing really new.

Statements like: ""Also, Italian Simone Moro is now the undisputed leader in winter, the only climber in history who has bagged three 8000ers completely in winter (all his expedition completely took place within calendar winter)," are a horrid and utter bullshit of people, who don't even bother checking some basic sources like AAJ, Mountain or Vertical.

Lets see some real historical data:

 

Mt Everest February 17 1980 Krzysztof Wielicki and Leszek Cichy

Manaslu January 12 1984 Maciej Berbeka and Ryszard Gajewski

Dhaulagiri January 21 1985 Andrzej Czok and Jerzy Kukuczka

Cho Oyo February 12 1985 Maciej Berbeka and Maciej Pawlikowski

Kanchenjunga January 11 1986 Krzysztof Wielicki and Jerzy Kukuczka

Annapurna February 3 1987 Artur Heizer and Jerzy Kukuczka

Lhotse December 31 1988 Krzysztof Wielicki

 

Now we had to wait till January 15 2005 for another ascent. This time it was

Shisha Pangma by Piotr Morawski and Simone Moro

Makalu February 9 2009 Denis Urbanko and Simone Moro

With recent ascent of G2 that makes 10 summits out of 14 are already climbed in winter so far and 8 of them were climbed by Polish teams. I don't know where is the author of the statement about Simone Moro was getting his information?! There are 2 other climbers, who also managed three winter summits so far. He is most definitely in very exclusive company, but thus far he just managed to get to the level that 2 others represented already in the 1980's.

[JasonG]

I think the key is the word "completely" in TNF press release/blog/whatever. I think it is a rather stupid distinction, but I'll bet this is the angle TNF is using. Probably some of the Polish expeditions started in the late autumn . ..

 

Sorry, didn't mean to come to the defense of TNF, I was merely marveling at the slippery phrasing that they used.

[Drederek]

Sounds like TNF is just putting the spin on their boys accomplishments. Advertising has never been a completely honest game. Why would you expect a huge corporation dedicated to selling puffy jackets to soccer moms to be 100% accurate? How long you been living in america?

[CascadeClimber]

The Poles seems to have a unique knack for enduring severe amounts of suffering in the mountains. Cheers to them.

[glassgowkiss]

Sounds like TNF is just putting the spin on their boys accomplishments. Advertising has never been a completely honest game. Why would you expect a huge corporation dedicated to selling puffy jackets to soccer moms to be 100% accurate? How long you been living in america?

Unfortunately this has the spilling affect and such nonsense is entering something like explorerweb. Now I can see why TNF would try to hype this up, but this bullshit keeps cascading into the main stream outdoor media.

[ScottP]

The Poles seems to have a unique knack for enduring severe amounts of suffering in the mountains. Cheers to them.

It seems that they may even have enjoyed it.

[Water]

The Poles seems to have a unique knack for enduring severe amounts of suffering in the mountains. Cheers to them.

 

I have heard it called the Polish Suffering Gene

[Jens]

It is sad they didn't do two minutes of fact checking first.

 

I would agree with you Bob, every Tom, Dick, and Harry has a climbing blog these days.

[genepires]

as well as every Gadd, Raphael, Haley and Sol has a blog these days.

 

oh yeah, these are examples of good blogs. my bad.

[kukuzka1]

I believe the polish routes were all done in the "official" winter season. The poles have suffered throughout history and the winter expeditions were a "break" for them.

[glassgowkiss]

I would agree with you Bob, every Tom, Dick, and Harry has a climbing blog these days.

I am not against the blogs themselves, but the issue is, when people are misrepresenting the facts. There is a difference between writing about your own experiences, and wondering into territory of presenting statistical and/or historical data (which in several cases has nothing to do with truth or accuracy).

Like I stated, a lot of material was published in printed form and is not in electronic form at all. But a few email and phone calls can result in a bunch of accurate information, however looks like a lot of times people are just too lazy.

[Rodrigo]

Greetings,

 

 

"... are a horrid and utter bullshit of people, who don't even bother checking some basic sources like AAJ, Mountain or Vertical."

 

My name is Rodrigo, I'm from Brazil, and I work in cooperation with Altamontanha, Explorersweb and Russianclimb.

 

I am here to answer to the attacks from "glasgowkiss".

 

I collect info about winter climbs for many years. And before my statement on Explorersweb ("Also, Italian Simone Moro is now the undisputed leader in winter, the only climber in history who has bagged three 8000ers completely in winter") I have consulted AJ, AAJ, Himalayan Database, and other sources. And, above all, I had interviwed seveal and several clibmers to consolidate a definition of what a winter climb should be. The actual definition is acceped by all climbers nowadays, and you can see that all the expeditions to 8000er in winter from 2007-on follow these rules, with all of them arriving at BC AFTER the beginning of the calendar winter.

 

There are no innacuracies. On previous articles on ExWeb there are full explanations on what a "REAL" winter ascent is (all the events of the expedition, from arrival at BC until departure, must take place in calendar winter).

 

I respect at most the Polish climbers (some of them are my idols - Wielicki, Berbeka, Kukuczka, etc.), but we have to admit that some of the "winter climbs" of the 80s were performed partially in Autumn and only the summit push was in wintertime (like Wielicki on Lhotse). So, they are not expeditions "completely in winter".

 

So, Simone Moro is the only climber so far who has bagged three COMPLETE winter ascents (all the events of his expeditions are in calendar winter).

 

A hug from Brazil,

 

 

Rodrigo Granzotto Peron

[glassgowkiss]

Dear Rodrigo, my name is Robert Rogoz. I am not some anonymous climber, just ask around. I started climbing in 1980 in Poland, so for several years I had personal and daily contacts with people like "Zyga" Heinrich, Gienek Chrobak, "Falco" Dasal or "Zwierz" Kurtyka. So as you see I have deep and personal knowledge of this group of climbers gained not from some magazines reading, but from slide shows they were presenting and personal contact.

Your argument completely lacks historical perspective and understanding the the background. I think furthermore it is a nitpicking to it's finest. I think your use of word "REAL" is utterly arrogant. Let me elaborate on some of these points.

First of all there was no "Winter Ascents" on 8000m peaks until February 17th 1980. The FWA was done on post monsoon season permit, as Nepalese Government was not willing to issue a "winter permit, but they extended the post monsoon season permit. As the matter of fact the biggest obstacle was Nepalese, Pakistani and Chinese bureaucracies. The only reason these expeditions take place now is because the trail has been broken by the climbers in the 80's, and now you actually can get a winter ascent permit. During that era Polish climbers did not have resources to the same degree as the climbers from the West. How many Westerners would pack a truck full of motorcycles, drive it across Europe and Asia, sell the bikes, so they would have enough money for the expedition?

There is also another reason that these expeditions were starting during the post monsoon season. None of them used helicopters. All the supplies and every member had to get to the base camp on foot. So my point is that distinguishing between what is and what is not FWA based on when you start your expedition is just nitpicking at it's finest.

 

[Off_White]

If you start lauding and praising the Poles they're going to lose all motivation, and from there its a short slide to a Red Bull sponsorship.

[Julian]

glassgowkiss I wouldn't waste your time getting too worked up over anything from ExWeb. This is a site that glorifies polluting siege-style expeditions and commercial climbs while ignoring almost anything that happens under 8000 meters.

[kukuzka1]

whats next- you had to have bought your plane ticket in "winter"? if your on the top in winter then its a winter ascent IMO

Edited February 9, 2011 by kukuzka1

[glassgowkiss]

 

 

And, above all, I had interviwed seveal and several clibmers to consolidate a definition of what a winter climb should be. The actual definition is acceped by all climbers nowadays, and you can see that all the expeditions to 8000er in winter from 2007-on follow these rules, with all of them arriving at BC AFTER the beginning of the calendar winter.

 

Rodrigo Granzotto Peron

 

One more thing. I would like to see the list of people whom you interviewed. I wonder if among them were people like Berbeka or "Krasnal". I understand it would be hard to interview Kukuczka due to the fact he is dead, but Berbeka has two and a half peaks in winter (Rocky Summit) and Krasnal has 3. Besides Moro these 2 climbers are the biggest experts on winter climbing in high ranges.

Like I stated in my earlier post- you can't retroactively apply rules and same measures from 2007 to the decades of the 80's. These rules were created at that time.