Nitrox Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Hard to hear the fringe element of any issue with much clarity. Disagree, its more clear now than ever before. This is what it would look like if Prole really wanted information on a new handgun: Recommend a new handgun Quote
prole Posted January 2, 2011 Author Posted January 2, 2011 My interest is legit, I'm moving to the big city and am likely to be living in a considerably less safe area than I am now. Good advice here, especially the situational awareness training tip. Not something one is likely to get from a handgun review, right Obnox? Quote
billcoe Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 One thing my first response presupposed was that you have a certain level of expertise. I had a couple years in the military where I extensively and frequently shot 3 different countries full arsenal up to and including machine guns. Yet my experience with weapons pales next to what I know of Danes and Serenity's. Of yours Prole, I know nothing. In fact, knowing that the reason you wish to be armed is that you are moving to the city, I believe Dane's response is even more valid. Pulling a handgun out can be an invitation to those you are pointing it at (or trying to get it pointed at) to take it away and use it on you. Pulling a gun out isn't the end all for safety. I've seen a guy advance on a man who had pulled a pistol out and was threatening to kill the guy, who continued to walk towards the man with the pistol pointing right at him while yelling "GO AHEAD AND SHOOT MOTHERFUCKER, GO AHEAD AND SHOOT MOTHERFUCKER!" as he advanced on the weapon while the dude with the gun walked backwards). Certainly in most situations, mace, some hand to hand fighting skills, running shoes (well laced and ready ) and situational awareness might just be your ticket to safety. I don't think it's half as violent around here as the news says. Where I live it's been getting much better anyway....but I'm just saying. Regards and good luck with the move. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 My interest is legit, I'm moving to the big city and am likely to be living in a considerably less safe area than I am now. Good advice here, especially the situational awareness training tip. Not something one is likely to get from a handgun review, right Obnox? Which "big city"? Quote
j_b Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Aren't most hand guns more likely to be used against someone in your household than against a bad guy? Quote
Hugh Conway Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 oh dear, I fear for where this is heading. Coldfinger killed off his alias in a domestic violence incident Quote
j_b Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 dont you two live together? are you channeling Fairweather? what gives? Quote
Dane Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Anyone seriously asking what kind of gun to buy for self defense.....anywhere of anyone....has so little chance of using a gun properly or legally in a physical confrontation. It might as well be a snow ball in hell. It is the wrong question. Using a weapon in a lethal confrontation LEGALLY has zero to do with the weapon and everything to do with your personal knowledge base on the subject and your decision making at that moment. Showing, implying, branishing, pointing and may be even just talking about what you are going to do with a gun in any confrontation atomatically makes you assume some very serious legal liability. If it turns out there was no lethal threat (a lethal threat is the only threat you can respond to with lethal force) your ass is in a heap of trouble. If you point a gun at someone you had better be willing and able to use it...because it is just as likely they take it away from you and use it themselves. It is way easier than you can imagine and there are people who train to do so on a daily basis. Just to seriously fuck with people like you. Better think long and hard about what it takes to point a gun at and shoot a person as it is a very real decision you will need to make long before any kind of incident ever happens to you. If you think I am blowing smoke here...take a quick look at the history in the last year or so of local or county officers. Same officiers who are well trained by the STATE and local depts. in the use of firearms, a physical force continuum and the "justifiable use of lethal force". Couple of them have been charged with assualt, manslaughter or worse on a criminal level and all have some obvious civil liability that will end up being big dollars personally. No one makes that kind of mistake on purpose. Anyone who says, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 is an idiot". First thing the state will do is look up every forum post you made about guns...and they'll read that to your jury totally out of any context. Sound scary..it should. Better not to be judged at all. That happens by first making good decisions. You make good decisions by knowing the subject..which is the study of "the justifiable use of lethal force" and it changes a bit from state to state. Worse yet in different countries. Caliber? More people have been killed with a .22 than likely all the other hand gun calibers combined if we are talking civilian shootings. But a .22, .25 or a .380 for that matter is considered worthless in professional circles as a self defense tool. Tiny, easily concealed and carried guns, shooting small caliber bullets are professional tools for very skilled shooters. If you can't hit with it, might as well be a paper weight. You want to stop the threat...not shoot it full of holes and have the threat still wring your neck or cut you to ribbons. All the while they sit around and bleed out but you are already dead. Poor trade. Small hand and big guns? Any thing from a 9mm to a 45 acp is generally considered a good "stopping caliber". There are many guns that allow even the smallest stature and small hands to shoot something between a 9mm and a 45acp well. Some of the guns suggested previous are extremely difficult to shoot well even for the very best marksmen. Some of the cartridges suggested are extremely high pressure and very difficult to shoot under stress. And shoot well you must. Recent FBI numbers show even the best trained LEO miss 55% of the time. Add to that 90% of those shootings are under 5 FEET and are over in 3 seconds. You could ask the 4 LEOs in Lakewood their numbers if they were still alive. Ask your self what you think their situational awareness was that morning. A skilled person with a reliable hand gun can solve difficult problems or create real mayhem very quickly. A smart person knows how to avoid difficult problems. Situational awareness, running shoes, cell phone, gun, pepper spray, cuffs and a knife are just different tools in the same box. If a hammer is your only tool every problem looks like a nail. Between 5 and 21 feet you don't have to be good or even lucky to kill someone. Between 5 and 21 feet you had better be extremely lucky and very skilled to survive. There ae pleanty of places locally I would not care to live becasue of the random violence. But likely no one posting on the board is forced to live in any of them. Sound like a lecture...it was. Sound serious...it is. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Everett. Why are you concerned about your safety in Everett?? Quote
Coldfinger Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Huh? My alias is just fine last I knew, and that's a bit of a slur, but it's spray and you're you so wgaf. It's a fair question to ask IMO, no more strange than folks who ask what kind of equipment is best for a beginner in climbing. Besides, it's an entertaining AND informative thread. Seems like the fellow has some common sense, I'd just quote the aforementioned Dirt Harry: "A good man's got to know his limitations." Meaning don't let being armed get you into any more trouble than you might otherwise get into. Some folks feel a Double Action Only wheel gun is best for self defense and new shooters safety-wise, some prefer automatics, whatever. I'd say start off with a revolver, DAO or otherwise. BTW I became a convert after having spent two winters living on the desert outside of El Paso, there were some pretty sketchball types rolling through camp at all hours of the day and night scoping me/us out. And Dane is right, in those situations seeing them coming (thanks dog) and my brain was what did the trick, that and the fact I can throw the Harry squint when need be! Quote
rob Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 I'm not worried about defending myself from crazies, although I guess that's a benefit. Shooting guns is just fun. Quote
Nitrox Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Some folks feel a Double Action Only wheel gun is best for self defense and new shooters safety-wise, some prefer automatics, whatever. I'd say start off with a revolver, DAO or otherwise. Wheelie guns have their place but they aren't any more reliable than most automatics (and a case can be made that new wheelies are made with trashy MIM parts). I carry a J-frame sometimes but it's largely dependent on what I'm wearing. If I can help it I carry a large frame auto. Most people are situationally blind and won't notice even an open carried pistol. Quote
rob Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) .380 is fairly underpowered, although the Walther PPK is a very nice weapon. Personally, I'd reconsider the .380 in favor of: * 40 SW (if you like beretta, the 96 is a nice handgun) * 10 mm (Glock 29 is a good "subcompact" in this caliber) * 357 SIG (the Glock 33 is a great concealed carry weapon, smallish, fun to shoot, and can go 9+1, or 10+1 (or more?) if you get a magazine extension.) All poor choices, Rob. But I'm impressed nonetheless. Everybody has their favorites, but I'm not sure how anybody could call a gun like the G29 in 10mm a "poor choice" for self-defense. The 10 is an excellent cartridge (just ask Ted Nugent!) and the G29 offers an accurate, concealable, controllable and powerful package. Edited January 3, 2011 by rob Quote
Nitrox Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Recent FBI numbers show even the best trained LEO miss 55% of the time. Add to that 90% of those shootings are under 5 FEET and are over in 3 seconds. Most officers shoot like dogshit because they aren't gun people and outside basic marksmanship PD's don't emphasize training. My ex-BIL was a trainer at a large Metro department and the stories I heard were pretty sad. I shot with him a few times and every time I was amazed he was a trainer, he didn't shoot very well either. Fun story time: I went to the Swanson training center for a little range time and watched a local department doing the indoor scenario training with SIMS. One of the female officers shot herself in the face. DERP! Sound like a lecture...it was. Sound serious...it is. Ayoob style. Quote
Nitrox Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 .380 is fairly underpowered, although the Walther PPK is a very nice weapon. Personally, I'd reconsider the .380 in favor of: * 40 SW (if you like beretta, the 96 is a nice handgun) * 10 mm (Glock 29 is a good "subcompact" in this caliber) * 357 SIG (the Glock 33 is a great concealed carry weapon, smallish, fun to shoot, and can go 9+1, or 10+1 (or more?) if you get a magazine extension.) All poor choices, Rob. But I'm impressed nonetheless. Everybody has their favorites, but I'm not sure how anybody could call a gun like the G29 in 10mm a "poor choice" for self-defense. The 10 is an excellent cartridge (just ask Ted Nugent!) and the G29 offers an accurate, concealable, controllable and powerful package. Just a guess but I assume FW means they are a poor choice within the context of a cartridge for a first time shooter. Quote
Coldfinger Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Everybody has their favorites, but I'm not sure how anybody could call a gun like the G29 in 10mm a "poor choice" for self-defense. The 10 is an excellent cartridge (just ask Ted Nugent!) and the G29 offers an accurate, concealable, controllable and powerful package. Gee maybe the guy asking for help said: "My hands are fairly small." The G29 is a freaking brick in the hand, even in the short frame version. Funny how listening goes by the wayside anytime guns come up. Quote
rob Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Have you shot it? It's quite reasonable, even for my girlfriend. In fact, I specifically recommended it BECAUSE of his small hands. Quote
Coldfinger Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Some folks feel a Double Action Only wheel gun is best for self defense and new shooters safety-wise, some prefer automatics, whatever. I'd say start off with a revolver, DAO or otherwise. Wheelie guns have their place but they aren't any more reliable than most automatics (and a case can be made that new wheelies are made with trashy MIM parts). I carry a J-frame sometimes but it's largely dependent on what I'm wearing. If I can help it I carry a large frame auto. Most people are situationally blind and won't notice even an open carried pistol. True to a point, but wheel guns are very safe as you: 1. Can tell looking at it if its loaded. 2. Need a heavy trigger pull or a deliberate hammer cock ( ). 3. Can't spray and pray. 4. Don't have a safety. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) If I ran across a pissed off moose at exit 38 I'd focus more on dosages than calibers. Nice, now that you mention it Exit 38 probably does have a lot of addled folks on antidepressants. Having said that, get the least accurate, smallest caliber weapon with the least number of rounds to maximize overall safety of everyone involved, including yourself. Other than that: put 911 on speed dial and always wear running shoes. Priceless! I've always found sidearms are useful when dealing with the odd NOLS course or Boy Scout Troop, but we're not PC. Happy New Year to you, was wondering when you'd chime in. NOLS? No weapons required. Simply ski unroped on a glacier, sans helmet, and watch the alpha lesbian leader's head spontaneously combust in dissapproval. God, if only antidepressants were capable of sending one on such a thought vacation.... Ambien and Old English 800 might produce a floating moose...but you'd never remember the experience. Edited January 3, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote
Coldfinger Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Gee yeah several hundred rounds worth and Gaston Glock himself thought it a bit much for small hands in that his company designed and manufactured the "short frame" model 29 to address its ergonomics. Kinda like how a lot of people prefer the 19/23/32 to the 17/22/31! Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Have you shot it? It's quite reasonable, even for my girlfriend. In fact, I specifically recommended it BECAUSE of his small hands. You gave a loaded gun to your girlfriend and stuck around? Quote
rob Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Gee yeah several hundred rounds worth $$$$$$$$ Quote
rob Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Have you shot it? It's quite reasonable, even for my girlfriend. In fact, I specifically recommended it BECAUSE of his small hands. You gave a loaded gun to your girlfriend and stuck around? Born in Romania, and raised in Texas -- she basically IS a loaded gun Quote
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