Climbing Ethics

[climber]

Most climbers in this state don't worry about how other people choose to climb. They may be cheating themselves out of the rea challenge, but at least they are not out judging others. Leave the ethics police jobs to the Canadian Rockies climbers. Every person who pays RMI does not carry a self contained load to Camp Muir, do you think that is not right??

 

[Rodchester]

Curious..what started this one?

Is the question whether someone else helping you reach a summit is ethical? i.e. guided climbs or porters hulling loads?

[Rodchester]

The way I see it is unto each their own. Hauling loads, or using porters, may not be the way to go for some but it may be for others.

This is the cascades, most anything goes. Sure there are somethings that are almost universally bad news. But for the most part go for it.

my two cents...

[Thomas]

Are climbers in the Himalaya's not ethical for using local porters? My question is 'why are climbing styles that are 'OK' in one region of the world considered to be not ethical in another?' In today's small world there is bound to be some blending of local ethics. Maybe porters on Cascade Volcanoes are a sign of the future to come.

(As an aside, I once humped loads for another party in the bugaboos as a way to get some cash to extend my climbing trip. Was that ethical??)

[SpongeBob]

I dont think that having help hauling gear up to base camp is unethical, but once the real climbing began thats another story. Theres no glory in being drug up to the summit by someone else.

[Smoker]

Weird post-

First off who really cares?

Second plenty of climbers do laps to Muir just to log milage and stay in shape, why not make some spare change in the process?(Might make the wife more willing to let you go!)

Folks experiance the hills differently, and climb for different reasons.

Smoker

[climber]

Yeah,someone was looking for help to haul a load and someone else pitched him horse doo doo for concidering it. The ethics police I guess.

[Dru]

I have NEVER flown into Slesse or Tantalus or paid someone to scrub my route for me or bolted more than 6 bolts per pitch or whatever... because I can't afford to. How you spend your own money is up to you as long as it doesn't piss anyone else off. I'd never hire a guide (or a hooker ) but if you can afford it financially and mentally go for it... What is this topic doing under "Climbing Partners Wanted" anyways?

[Bronco]

Dru,

The thread is related to an inquiry into if anyone was interested in hauling loads to camp muir for fun or money for a dude and his brother who were planning to climb Rainier in April. When SOMEONE responed in the positive, they all were scolded for being "unethical". It was another thread gone to hell or having nothing to do with the original post. So I beilieve this thread was an attempt to seperate the two issues.

Ryan

[highclimb]

I just wanted to help out a little and thought it might be fun. and by doing that i would be in the mountains. get in better shape for the summer and what better way to make a little money to buy my next cam or ice screw huh? i dont think it is wrong at all to have a porter its just a different style. people do it in India and Nepal all the time what makes it any different.

Aidan

[whillans]

Aidan-you're cool-no worries...

The question SHOULDN'T be:

"Is it ethical to hire someone to carry your gear?"

The question SHOULD be:

"Is it ethical to bait someone on a chatboard with an assinine offer you don't even intend to honor. With the intent of publicly trashing the respondees afterwards."

Hey! wdkingmnan kiss my *&^ with your post.

[highclimb]

right on he really shouldnt have done that just to find out "who was ethical, who was nice and who is whtever".......just ask if you want to know

thanks

Aidan

[erik]

when it comes down to ethics- i personally only believe in one. don't damage the rock or any wilderness for your benefit. now on style of ascent that is a different matter. if you want to have someone carry loads, or you ae going to pull on gear or what not, then that is poor style. and if you want to start a good topic, though do it through baiting people, then that is worse than poor style. but does it really effect anyone if any or no style is involved? nope! the only thing you are cheating with poor style is your image(if it matters) and maybe good decision making skills for later. patterns do develop.

so if you want to use load hualers or pull on gear, or have a guide take you up a mtn.... blah...blah...blah....go for it, just as long as you are not adversly affecting the enviroment.

jah

 

[Tod]

I think the last few posts made a good point.

Poor style vs. poor ethics...

Everybody has there own style of climbing and "as long as you are not adversely affecting the environment" or others, who gives.... What is poor style versus good style should only be determined by what the climber was trying to get out of the climb. Everybody can flex their muscles on whether or not someone should be paid to help haul loads, able to pull on pro, hire a guide, etc., but it still is up to the climber to figure out what they are trying to get out of the climb....

Good ethics versus poor ethics is much harder to determine and everybody has an opinion. Personally, baiting a thread is a form of entrapment and it would be silly to think that people wouldn’t get pissed off...

Tod

 

[pope]

Absolutely! The style in which you climb is your business. If Billy wants to free solo a fist crack and if Bob wants to aid it on fat cams, then each guys gets what he wants. The experience of subsequent parties is not jeopardized in the way that pin scars, chicken bolts and chipping affect future parties' experiences.

Style does become an issue when people climb in poor style and fail to disclose the details when they get back to camp. A few years ago, I heard a lot of buzz about a guy (name sounds like a girl's) who "flashed" ROTC!! Not a lot of people do this, and I was slapping the guy on the back for twenty minutes before he admitted to placing all of the gear on rap. Same accomplishment? A lot of people didn't hear this part of the story.

[steveo]

what is your guys story. Who cares? What a lame topic, all you loosers need to start worrying about your own climbing and get out of you little climbing gyms, take the bumper stickers off your cars, leave your nalgene bottles for your packs and not coffe at the office, stop trying to look outdoors on the street with all your outdoor wear, and really go climb something it might change your outlook alittle on what getting out and enjoying the outdoors is all about. Why is it that you guys need to belong to something to feel cool, need an image, need to be cool, need to pretend you didn't get you little asses kick everyday of your school life. Now you have something cool, hardcore to associate yourselfs to. loosers! Why dont you just leave everyone else alone and worry about yourselfs. I just try to find a site to get conditions and route info. But no never can. Because every time one is created it is over ran by punk little bitches like you. Climbing isn't any more hardcore that racketball or biking. In fact i know more people hurt running that climbing. Just chill and go climb for once and you might find that everyone does it for themselves that really climb not for image, CHICKS, glory, or self esteem. They do it for themselves and that is good enough. You will find that pulling on plastic holds in the gym is the place for that.

[goatboy]

Dear Steve O,

I find it fascinating that you describe "climbing ethics" as a "lame topic," yet find so much inspiration to write the heated post that you wrote about this "lame topic."

I also find it interesting that you write, "Why dont you just leave everyone else alone and worry about yourselfs" when you're failing to model that behavior yourself(s).

Personally, I think that climbing has a lot to teach us about ethics and morals, about how we treat each other and how we treat the wilderness, and believe that it's perfectly valid (if not essential) for climbers to discuss ethics as a process of figuring those things out for themselves.

This thread arose out of an earlier thread about hauling loads to Muir, but it definitely touches on larger issues. If people out there aren't interested in those issues, fine, but let's not condemn the issues as "lame" just because you're not interested in them.

Steve Smith

[goatboy]

Dear Steve O,

I find it fascinating that you describe "climbing ethics" as a "lame topic," yet find so much inspiration to write the heated post that you wrote about this "lame topic."

I also find it interesting that you write, "Why dont you just leave everyone else alone and worry about yourselfs" when you're failing to model that behavior yourself(s).

Personally, I think that climbing has a lot to teach us about ethics and morals, about how we treat each other and how we treat the wilderness, and believe that it's perfectly valid (if not essential) for climbers to discuss ethics as a process of figuring those things out for themselves.

This thread arose out of an earlier thread about hauling loads to Muir, but it definitely touches on larger issues. If people out there aren't interested in those issues, fine, but let's not condemn the issues as "lame" just because you're not interested in them.

Steve Smith

[Dru]

From Cascade Alpine Guide Vol 3 (this quote is paraphrased because I don' have the book open in front of me)

Referring to Liberty Crack: "A clever ploy is to employ a climbing slave to carry gear to the route base."

There ya go. Portering in the Cascades is Beckey-approved!

[erik]

whillans! save us from this!

[Jason_Martin]

Stevo,

Part of climbing is talking about it. Debates about climbing ethics at the crag or in the mountains are fun to discuss. Routes are fun to discuss. The friends we make and the people we climb with are fun to talk about.

It's not fun when you insult the people involved in the discussions. In fact it's quite immature to call people "little bitches." Especially people you don't know.

It's also quite immature to assume that people who talk about climbing don't climb. In fact, that doesn't even make sense. Every climber I know loves to talk about climbing, whether they are dirt-bag climbers that spend three hundred days a year on routes, or weekend warriors that spend most of their time on plastic.

It's a lot more fun to hear your opinion when you don't act like a sixth grader.

[highclimb]

well said.

Aidan

[Jman]

Jon...?

Tim...?

Care to move this topic to "Spray"?

[Mr_Phil]

It's not fun when you insult the people involved in the discussions. In fact it's quite immature to call people "little bitches." Especially people you don't know. It's also quite immature to assume that people who talk about climbing don't climb. In fact, that doesn't even make sense. Every climber I know loves to talk about climbing, whether they are dirt-bag climbers that spend three hundred days a year on routes, or weekend warriors that spend most of their time on plastic. It's a lot more fun to hear your opinion when you don't act like a sixth grader.

 

You must be new.

[catbirdseat]

Quite an old thread to resurrect. I'd have to agree that the original poster confused style with ethics.