Love a Muslim: Seattle version

[archenemy]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011706113_apeufranceforbiddingtheveil.html?prmid=obnetwork

 

[ivan]

on the plus side, this thread has somehow gotten "peace train" lodged into my cerebellum

[JosephH]

Bill's original post was more about the right stand in the middle of a freeway waving an advocacy flag of your choice - there is no doubt about the nobility of the intent or cause, but the delivery methodology is naive and an accident waiting to happen. The results in this case were entirely predictable. Again, your responses lack an appreciation for the difference between principle and effective methodology.

 

Advocacy methodologies, like anything else, do have a bell curve of effectiveness. Naivety and martyrdom are certainly in there to count on if you are managing a fundamentalist campaign - but again, that sort of managing and cheering on from the sidelines I personally find just a bit ruthless.

[Nitrox]

The only way to deal with a bully is to call his bluff. That's precisely why our artists SHOULD expose these totalitarian fuckers for what they really are.

 

From a historical standpoint, the prohibition regarding the depiction of Mojo has nothing to do with the Koran or Islam. It's a completely man-made construct designed for crowd control through intimidation, and it begs for a punch in the fucking face as often and possible.

 

This issue is about people who choose to be assholes under the guise of a religion they reinvented, not beliefs. It's not about respect, it's about exposing the usurpation and corruption of a religion for political gain. We should not respect such beliefs: we should deplore them.

 

 

This is of course true but, once again, relies on the heavy lifting of others. When you say "our" artists what you really mean is "someone else". You aren't going to put your neck out, you're just going to posture on the internet.

 

Bravo on your principles, you really do stick to them.

 

 

[whirlwind]

hum a new religious fatcion?

 

would they be called (mormon muslem) mormusles, muslmorms...?

[prole]

This is of course true but, once again, relies on the heavy lifting of others.

 

Given the track record of your kind of "heavy lifting", it's pretty safe to say that we'd all be better off if you just dropped the piano down the stairs.

Edited April 28, 2010 by prole

[j_b]

The existence of ethics that transcend space, time and culture doesn't mean one should be culturally insensitive, especially if it leads to alienating many of the well disposed moderates among Muslims. I am not advocating not portraying Mohamed but doing it without taking the extremists' bait, without prejudice and while also denouncing the wrongs done to their culture or it will seen as one more weapon in the arsenal to keep them down.

[j_b]

That's quite ironic and revealing to see the name of Ron Paul, who routinely associates with anti-democratic bigots like the John Birchers, in the context of an appeal to tolerance and free speech.

[tvashtarkatena]

Moderate Muslims care as much about a mojammed cartoon as moderate christians care about the bobbleheaded jesus...that is to say, not so much. For a balanced person with genuine faith, that stuff just doesn't register.

Edited April 28, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[Choada_Boy]

[College Prof. Blow-Hole]: "Freedom to...or Freedom from?"

 

 

[JayB]

The existence of ethics that transcend space, time and culture doesn't mean one should be culturally insensitive, especially if it leads to alienating many of the well disposed moderates among Muslims. I am not advocating not portraying Mohamed but doing it without taking the extremists' bait, without prejudice and while also denouncing the wrongs done to their culture or it will seen as one more weapon in the arsenal to keep them down.

 

You're confusing courtesy and cravenness. Big difference between accommodating a request and capitulating to a threat.

 

 

[JayB]

Bill's original post was more about the right stand in the middle of a freeway waving an advocacy flag of your choice - there is no doubt about the nobility of the intent or cause, but the delivery methodology is naive and an accident waiting to happen. The results in this case were entirely predictable. Again, your responses lack an appreciation for the difference between principle and effective methodology.

 

Advocacy methodologies, like anything else, do have a bell curve of effectiveness. Naivety and martyrdom are certainly in there to count on if you are managing a fundamentalist campaign - but again, that sort of managing and cheering on from the sidelines I personally find just a bit ruthless.

 

So lay out your "more effective" solution to the problem presented by violent fanatics who use murder impose their religious taboos on others.

 

How's the accommodation routine worked in places like England?

[prole]

How's the accommodation routine worked in places like England?

 

...as opposed to the exclusion routine in places like...Israel?

[JosephH]

So lay out your "more effective" solution to the problem presented by violent fanatics who use murder impose their religious taboos on others.

Having social institutions with the real power stand their ground - in this case it would be South Park > Comedy Central > MTV > Viacom. Artists have their place, but then the likes of Rushdie, Westergaard, Van Gogh have either essentially or or actually forfeited their lives. I don't see you prepared to do the same and I don't suppose that was Molly's intention either.

 

How's the accommodation routine worked in places like England?

I wouldn't necessarily confuse and conflate this issue with that of the karmic payback of reverse colonization. Are there shared themes? Sure, but their's is entirely self-induced. Bummer, but definitely a case of reaping what you sow writ large across centuries.

[ivan]

So lay out your "more effective" solution to the problem presented by violent fanatics who use murder impose their religious taboos on others.

i know what col walter e kurtz would say

[Choada_Boy]

"I brought you some magazines."

[j_b]

The existence of ethics that transcend space, time and culture doesn't mean one should be culturally insensitive, especially if it leads to alienating many of the well disposed moderates among Muslims. I am not advocating not portraying Mohamed but doing it without taking the extremists' bait, without prejudice and while also denouncing the wrongs done to their culture or it will seen as one more weapon in the arsenal to keep them down.

 

You're confusing courtesy and cravenness. Big difference between accommodating a request and capitulating to a threat.

 

 

As if most Muslims of developing nations believed a word you say by now. Not so long ago, you claimed you wanted them to accept democracy from the tips of bayonets. Do you really believe they are going to think your posturing is strictly to protect freedom of speech? I don't think I believe it myself ...

[j_b]

Moderate Muslims care as much about a mojammed cartoon as moderate christians care about the bobbleheaded jesus...that is to say, not so much. For a balanced person with genuine faith, that stuff just doesn't register.

 

History has shown that otherwise reasonable folks will believe anything when they feel attacked ...

[JayB]

So lay out your "more effective" solution to the problem presented by violent fanatics who use murder impose their religious taboos on others.

Having social institutions with the real power stand their ground - in this case it would be South Park > Comedy Central > MTV > Viacom. Artists have their place, but then the likes of Rushdie, Westergaard, Van Gogh have either essentially or or actually forfeited their lives. I don't see you prepared to do the same and I don't suppose that was Molly's intention either.

 

How's the accommodation routine worked in places like England?

I wouldn't necessarily confuse and conflate this issue with that of the karmic payback of reverse colonization. Are there shared themes? Sure, but their's is entirely self-induced. Bummer, but definitely a case of reaping what you sow writ large across centuries.

 

Care to explain how social institutions can take an effective stand if the society that they operate in condemns their refusal to abide by religious taboos as foolhardy "insensitivity" that warrants violent retribution? You really think that some kind of tactical collective appeasement that'll end at some indefinite point in the future is going to undermine their capacity to intimidate rather than entrench it?

 

You still seem to be of the opinion that westerners are still the party with the capacity to call the shots in this game. All people in the West have to do is strive to learn what Muslims find offensive, then stop doing it, and all will be well.

 

It's been clear ever since the Rushdie affair that this isn't actually the case. They'll decide what offends them and when, and folks in the west will abase themselves apologizing, condemn the people who exercised their rights and liberties in whichever way the violent Muslim fringe found objectionable, and quietly pray that if they do so consistently enough, they'll be left alone.

 

Each psuedo-grievance that has been trumped up since the Rushie affair is simply an extension of this logic. A test to see how much political power they can exert under the pretext of protecting their religious scruples.

 

This isn't about religion. It's about power. The Chinese president could defile the Koran six-different ways from Sunday, broadcast it live, stream it on youtube, and carpet-bomb the Middle East with CD copies and there'd be zero "blowback" because Al Queda and their fellow travelers understand that trying to get their way by threatening them would be ineffective, and quite counterproductive. To put it mildly.

 

Speaking of "blowback," your reference to the karmic payback for colonization is especially amusing in this case. From the late 7th century to the mid-14th century, the Muslims were the world's foremost military and cultural imperialists. The only thing that prevented them from continuing in that role was a series of sustained military defeats beginning with the Mongols, and centuries of commercial decline brought on by the European discovery and exploitation of a sea-route to the far-east. Per your logic, the European colonization and domination of the Middle East was the rulers of the Caliphate "reaping what they'd sown for centuries" in Europe.

 

 

[Fairweather]

Taking a 400-level course entitled "Islam" this summer quarter--taught by a professor who is a secular Turk, I'm told. Should be interesting.

[ivan]

Taking a 400-level course entitled "Islam" this summer quarter--taught by a professor who is a secular Turk, I'm told. Should be interesting.

had the same at uva - doubt you'll learn more than you do just be being observant and reading - what's to say? islam's the same as all other pie-in-the-sky philsohpies - crazy, certainly, but not outrageously so in the practice of the live'n'let'live majority...

[Fairweather]

My opinion of Islam is right up there with that which I hold for communism. Fucked up bullshit. I still don't buy the whole "religion of peace" crap either. Tacitly approving masses, IMO. As always, a 4.0 will require me to properly evaluate the professor's ability to improperly interpret my subtle jabs.

[ivan]

w/ your wide open mind i'm sure you'll learn a lot

 

i like how the foundation story of both islam and mormonism is virtually identical

[j_b]

Now that we brought them democracy, I am confident they'll love free speech: After torture claims, Iraqi PM says prisoners ‘burned themselves’ with matches to fake abuse: "After a shocking report by Human Rights Watch accusing the Iraqi government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki with operating a secret Baghdad prison where detainees were hung upside down, whipped and suffocated, the embattled Iraqi leader accused his political opponents and foreign governments of staging faked torture to make him look bad."

[Fairweather]

w/ your wide open mind i'm sure you'll learn a lot

 

 

A lot more than the folks with their mouths wide open...

 

Don't know much about the Mor Mons.