Speed and Safety Tips

[Bob Loomis]

Dear Fellow Climbers,

 

A week or so ago Alpine Monkey started a thread in this forum under the heading “is it worth dying for.” It has generated a lot of good discussion about perceptions of risk and managing that risk. It seemed logical to go the next step and share strategies, so the following is a list of things I do—a set of maxims I employ. Some are generic to all areas of climbing; some are specific to ice climbing; some apply only to long routes—pick and choose as you wish. I hope you find them helpful. Here goes:

 

1. Do not go climbing with a divided mind and half-hearted. Get in the car and go because you really want to go. Going climbing with less than a full commitment is a disservice to you and your partners. Many accidents in the mountains are tracable to the climber never wanting to be there in the first place.

 

2. Climb with an aware and focused mind. There will be time after the climb to think about why your girlfriend is leaving you, why your co-worker got a raise and you did not, etc. Many accidents in the mountains are tracable to the climber’s mind being elsewhere rather than the task—which is to climb the route as competently, safely, and effectively as possible.

 

3. When I go ice climbing I do not go climbing for the fun of it in the classic sense of the word “fun.” Of course it is fun, but ice climbing is dangerous. I adopt a professional’s mindset, like a neurosurgon might prior to doing a complicated brain surgery—there is nothing casual about it. If I am bouldering with some friends or top roping at a crag, that might be the time to be a bit more relaxed, but not ice climbing. So once I get to the route the horseplay and joking is gone. I focus on the task at hand. In preparation (getting on my harness, etc.) I do not do things that would distract my partner and I expect him/her to do the same with me—no idle chatter, etc. On the drive home is when it is time to joke, etc.

 

4. Prepare assidiously. Do not go into the field with dull tools, crampon bails that do not fit your boot, etc. You do not have to have the most expensive gear, but what you do have should be in good working order and you should know how to use it in the dark if need be.

 

5. Use simple systems. It might be great to be able to tie the latest triple overhand with a half twist backflip bowline knot you learned from some instructional DVD. But in the field there are only a few knots you need for 98% of all climbing—clove hitch, figure eight, prussik, and bowline. Extend that idea of simple systems to everything else you do.

 

6. Use the thinnest glove system you can safely get away with when climbing—it reduces hand fatigue associated with gripping your tool and reduces the fumble factor associated with handling carabiners, screws, tying knots, etc. Experiment with what will work that is thin. If it is that cold, carry something thicker on your harness and put those on over your climbing gloves at the belay.

 

7. Effective team and individual speed matters. Stand in the middle of the freeway long enough and you will get hit. Dart across the freeway and you might just live. Fast effective teams are safer simply because they spend less time exposing themselves to objective hazards, are less fatigued, etc. So how to gain speed. Here are some ideas. Anchors: this is not sport climbing where one is usually clipping off on pre-set bolts. Assuming decent ice the leader should be able to fire in two screws, pull a shoulder-length sling off his/her shoulder—clip, clip—half twist to one side of the sling, clip and tie in with a clove hitch in under two minutes flat. I have seen parties where the leader takes five minutes or longer to set up some elaborate set of anchors with everything nicely equalized. If the leader takes five minutes, it takes the second three minutes to break it down (eight minutes total). On a ten pitch day that is 80 minutes—that is huge!! That is the difference between descending in the dark, etc., and not. Worse I have seen people ice climb and take 15-20 minutes for the same task. They might get an “A” from their mountain school instructor in anchor building, but that kind of approach is dangerous in the mountains. If the leader gets set up in two minutes, the second can break in down in under one. Add it up. Of course there are exceptions, if the ice is really bad, etc. But if the ice is that bad an anchor with 10 screws might just be the climbing equivalent of “whistling in the dark.” If it is that bad then live with a less than bomber anchor and whoever leads the next pitch get in a screw right off the belay to reduce the forces. Also less time building and breaking down anchors means less time cooling off at the belay and getting cold. Keep moving means staying warm.

 

8. How to gain time. Leading ice is dangerous—the leader will want to take his/her time and get good sticks every time if possible, and move with patient care. But the team can gain time with the second. Unless the second is trying to get on the cover of Rock & Ice with some graceful shot—the motto of the second should be “go, Cat, go.” The second can get away with less than ideal sticks, longer reaches, some awkward stances, etc. If it is reasonably safe to do and will save time the second should do it—a fall for the second does not mean the same thing as it does for the leader. Practice speed on a TR so when you need to, you can turn on the afterburners.

 

9. The leader should get comfortable leading with a little play in the rope. It is frustrating, enervating, and potentially dangerous to always be bumping into the rope every time the leader makes a move up or has to fight the rope to get a clip. If the belay is too tight and the leader moves up, it can pull the leader off. I would much rather run the risk of falling a little bit further (and yes, I have taken several for-real leader falls on technical ice), than arriving at the belay fatigued and frustrated because I fought the rope the whole way up. Tight belays have their place sometimes, but usually not. Get mentally comfortable leading with a little play in the rope.

 

10. So long as you are moving and generating heat and it is not brutally cold, it is okay to eat snow periodically and take a little less water in polybottle form. I leaned this from something Messner wrote years ago. One of the 8,000 meter peaks he did in alpine style he and his partner carried no stove and only one water bottle, because they were continually moving, and they supplemented by sucking on ice bits and snow. I tried this one winter in the Waterton. I carried one water bottle and supplemented with snow all day long—worked fine—but I was moving so I was cranking the heat.

 

11. Carry your microlight (couple of ounces) in that little pouch on the inside of your softshell. You will be grateful later that you kept the battery warm rather than cold in that pack you wore all day. Also try hard not to carry a pack on the route. Squirrel things onto your person and harness, and ditch the pack. Just like in bike racing there are products (Patagonia pile vest, ex.) which feature a low back zip pouch—stick your bars, and other small items in there—easy to reach, kept warm, and might mean no pack, or maybe one pack for the team instead of two. A few years ago I climbed Polar Circus, and got by with the smallest Camelbak for my pack (sans bladder of course). I was fine and had margin. By the way, climb long enough and you will drop your pack at least once. If that happens on a long route it might mean having to bail. But if your essentials are on your person that is one less contingency to worry about. Forget about what you learned in Mountain School, you can safely climb with much less in the way of essentials than your instructors (who are usually not top-tier climbers) would have you believe. For sure there are times when you need to take everything and the kitchen sink, but take a cue from the greats—they pack and travel light—so can you.

 

12. Use a long rope—70 meters should be the norm for ice climbing, or longer. You can link pitches, might not need a second rappel rope, etc. It gets hard to hear each other that far apart, and all that snow tends to muffle sound, so agree on rope pull signals (two pulls means off belay, etc.) or use small two way radios—that is what my partners and I use. Cheap, light, batteries last several days—eliminates yelling and all the time spent repeating yourself, confused signals, etc.

 

13. It is hard to make accurate route and risk assessments at a distance. Unless it is perilous to do so, once there, get out of the car and really look around. If not sure bring some small field glasses or hike up to the route’s base. I find that I can only get a real picture of what I am getting into when I get close to the actual objective.

 

14. Practice being objective—really objective, not pseudo-objective so you look macho to yourself and your friends. When making assessments, start with the facts, then backfill with gut feel, intuition, guess-work, etc. Feelings should be part of the mental equation, but feeling come and go depending on how you slept last night, what you ate for breakfast, etc. So start with a clear-headed, unbiased assessment of the facts at or near the route for accuracy (temperatures on prior days, temperature right now, quality and condition of the ice, and a hundred other factors that have to be realistically evaluated to get a picture of what is really going on).

 

15. Be a principle-based (flexible) climber rather than a rule-based (inflexible) climber. If you see a faster, safe, and effective way to do something in the field, and it looks right, it probably is, so do it, even if it violates some “rule” you learned from some DVD or clinic. Great performers are highly imaginative, creative, flexible, and adaptable people. Standing around debating whether some rule applies to your situation and what to do about it, is a great way to get hit.

 

Cheers,

Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

[marc_leclerc]

You forgot rule 16:

 

Be really fucking strong, work your technique for speed and energy management (I suck at this) and when the ice and sticks are bomber run it out because placing screws takes time and energy.

[montypiton]

Thanks, Bob. We all need reminders once in a while. Just last weekend I grounded off a toproped sicle that neither I nor my partner felt ready to lead. Unfortunately, we both forgot how much stretch you can get from a LONG slingshot toprope, and now I'm housebound for five more weeks while my ankles heal up. I would have been safer leading, and hang-dogging on screws than I ended up being with that top-rope. A good example of failing to think outside the box...

Edited January 8, 2010 by montypiton

[AlpineBEAU.509]

Words of wisdom from a great climber and Friend. We need to Get out Soon Bob, Its been too long.

 

[Jake_Gano]

Hi Bob,

This is a great post. I've revisited it a few times now to stew over what you've said before I decided to reply.

 

Dear Fellow Climbers,

 

Assuming decent ice the leader should be able to fire in two screws, pull a shoulder-length sling off his/her shoulder—clip, clip—half twist to one side of the sling, clip and tie in with a clove hitch in under two minutes flat.

 

I find this comment interesting - probably 90% of the pitches I've ever lead ended in an anchor just like that. But you talk about seeing climbers spend ages building elaborate textbook anchors, and my experience has been the opposite. I've climbed far too often with people who put together lackluster anchors and spend too long doing i). Last season I was followed fairly long, hard pitch (at least by my standards) and when I got to the anchor, my partner had just slammed in both ice tools, clipped his daisy chain to one, and clip a draw from one loop of his daisy chain to the other tool! At least he had the courtesy to tell my "Don't Fall!" when I started pulling the last screw. I could rattle off another half-dozen stories from the last couple years along those lines.

 

Funky or thin ice might take a little more elaborate anchor-frigging, but with experience and objectivity even that shouldn't take too long. A willingness to slam your partner's stubbies into frozen turf helps. If you've practiced and can recognize when unconventional warfare is the only thing that'll get you a good anchor, then you can just act and make even an elaborate anchor in just a few more minutes.

 

So Bob - I am interested to hear some stories about your lead falls. What sort of subject and objective reasons did you fall? How far? Any injuries. Anyone else with good ice winger stories should chime in. There's no better way to learn about how to not get hurt than to observe those that have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jake_Gano

[genepires]

rule 16 blows major ass. (not the being strong part) If you the ice is good, quickly place screws at regular intervals. You might climb slower but you will climber longer in life. Ice climbing is a serious game and must be treated accordingly. Soloing with a belay is a bad way top go. It creates a very false sense of security. I have personally seen two instances where a fall would have ended up on the ground or ledge but only pure luck saved him and myself. I was falling when some cauliflowers broke and managed to get the pick in a old pick hole and hang on. My gear was far away and of no use if I didn't stick it midflight. Luck goes so far.

Edited March 23, 2010 by genepires

[tomtom]

Rule 11 is kinda dumb, too. The better microlights such as the Petzl e+lite or Princeton Tec Scout use lithium coin cells which aren't terribly effected by cold weather.

 

I'd be skeptical of advice given by someone using alkaline batteries for ice climbing or other cold weather adventures. There are more intelligent options.

[summitchaserCJB]

Gene- I tend to agree. "If you the ice is good, quickly place screws at regular intervals."

 

I agree- this goes for trad too (even though this is an ice discussion). If the ice is good, an ice screw will definitely be

more likely to hold a fall. Better to place a screw when the going is good than get into a sketchy situation and regret it.

Edited March 23, 2010 by summitchaserCJB

[Dane]

Couple of things that stick in my mind. Things Will Gadd and Roger Strong have both repeated in writing or in person at different times.

 

Falling on ice? See the bottom section of #4. But never a good thing and generally always a lack of judgement involved not a lack of climbing skill imo. See Gadd's comments in my highlighted secton of #5 on judgement.

 

Two of the basics I try to adhere to and a small part of some of the best written commentary on ice climbing I have seen posted below. All originally posted on Will's Blog.

 

from Gadd's blog recently

 

http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010_03_14_archive.html

 

4. How often to put in ice screws? As often as you need to, but always have enough solid gear in to keep you from either hitting the ground or a ledge feature that will operate as the ground. If I feel strong and secure I'll run it hard on steep terrain. But if gets ledgy and messy I'll always put in a screw just before pulling over a bulge above a ledge... It's all about the situation you find yourself in, or rather, knowingly climbed into 'cause you were reading the route above you and had an idea for the line developed on the approach. I have seen way too many horrible broken ankles, legs and other carnage from people falling off on ice, even while being lowered on ice and dropping a few feet onto a ledge. Crampons and falling just do not mix; sometimes you'll have good luck and it will all be OK, but personally I try to climb like any fall will result in a compound fracture of both legs. It's worked for 25 years.

 

 

5. If you can't lead most any ice pitch you encounter in under about 30 minutes and any ice pitch you encounter in under an hour then you're climbing over your head and shouldn't be there. Go back and learn how to climb better, or choose an easier line. I mean this. Alpine pitches are a bit different, but most pure ice pitches should take under half an hour to lead. If they're taking more than this you're either trying to climb up to the level of your ego (the pitch is too hard even if you think you should be able to do it), you're trying to impress someone else (same), or you've screwed up and are trying to get it done (it happens, I was there a month ago). Realize that you're pushing things, your partner is going to get cold and not be having any fun, and that you don't have a safety margin anymore. Ice climbing is fundamentally not about technical ability but balancing ability and ambition; I'm a lot more impressed with someone who can lead a "grade 4" smoothly and well than some joker who sketches up a "grade 6, dude!" then boasts about it in the bar. If I sound a bit sarcastic and maybe a little aggro here it's because I've seen far too many leaders on terrain far too hard for them over the years. I've left climbing areas rather than watch someone sketch their way up something. Compound fractures are messy, I don't want to watch.

 

"If you can't lead most any ice pitch you encounter in under about 30 minutes and -any- ice pitch you encounter in under an hour then you're climbing over your head and shouldn't be there."

 

And let me add to the above comment..."and then follow them in less than HALF that time". If you can't then you should probably go find something you can actually climb.

 

Roger Strong sez:

 

"My rule of thumb is... If it takes me more than 20 minutes for any ice pitch, it’s probably harder than grade 5."

 

[Bob Loomis]

Dear Fellow Climbers,

 

I am (I think) happy that my original posting engendered some conversation. Here are some observations:

 

1. The last item on my list in my original posting urged a flexible, adaptable mind-set, rather than an inflexible (rule-based) mind-set. So several responses describe my posting as a set of rules. Maybe I should have used a better word than "maxims" in my introduction, but my idea was to list things that seem to help, but for you to adapt to your situation as you deemed fit, rather than force something down someone's throat.

 

2. Jake invites me to describe some of my falls. But that is hard to do in any kind of concise way. I have taken leader falls on rock and ice, and survived them. Why did I fall on those occasions? Sometimes inattention, sometimes in over my head and not knowing it, once or twice a hold broke off, etc. There is no common denominator to my leader falls. Sorry to be so vague but that is the truth.

 

3. I agree with all of Dane's post (above)--leader falls on ice are serious matters and the ideas he offers are worth reading.

 

4. Over the years I have been critized by climbing partners for placing too much gear. One person, last winter said he would not climb with me because I put in too many ice screws, thus lessening his "fun" by having to stop and remove them (in fairness I do not think he was serious, just spewing words at the time). But it is true, when leading ice I tend to place a fair number of screws. So what is my point? I am trying to support Dane's point (Gadd's point, etc.) that a long leader fall on ice is likely to be a serious, bloody affair. My leader falls on ice have been at most a couple of body lengths and that was fine with me.

 

5. My comments about keeping your microlight on your person if possible were motivated by several rationale, only one of which was keeping the battery warm. So I concur, new battery technology has lessened if not eliminated the need to consider battery warmth, but quick access to the light in dim conditions, etc., are other reasons why a person might want his/her microlight on their person rather than in their pack.

 

6. One nice thing (among others) about this site, and climbing discussion forums in general is for people to share their wisdom. When I was a new climber (I am 55 now) Robbins' Basic Rockcraft had just come out but was not on the storeshelf--it was all (for me anyway) trial and error, rumor, informal mentoring, etc. So what is my point? All of you are fortunate to have Dane and others (not me--I never was and am not now on Dane's level) contributing their decades of experience to the discussion. The same is true on sites like SuperTopo, etc. My hope is discussions like this are rewarding and helpful--Lord knows I sure could have used something like this when getting into this wonderful thing we call "climbing."

 

Cheers and safe climbing to all,

 

Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

[trainwreck]

I disagree with Marc's Rule 16, mostly because it is advice about 15 years too late.

 

I also disagree with Dane/Will's point about how much time an ice lead takes. I think that if the leader is in control and comfortable, milking rests and shaking out a lot, a 60m WI6 pitch can take much longer than half an hour. I can see shitty, technical ice taking a long time to work out. It doesn't mean you should go climb WI4, it means that the lead is going to take a bit longer. I understand the point he's making but I don't think it really applies to hard ice as well as he thinks it does.

[Dane]

Two hrs per pitch on Curtain Call this year as I remember Grant And you said...what? "easy WI5?" Oh, and remind me which ankle did you brake on that lead last year?

 

Will said an hour.....as did Rog for WI6 or at least 30 min plus. Me? hell, I never climb WI6! Too scary. I want my ice, fat, thick, just a tiny bit wet and very picked out thanks!

 

 

[marc_leclerc]

Roger Strong sez:

 

"My rule of thumb is... If it takes me more than 20 minutes for any ice pitch, it’s probably harder than grade 5."

 

Guys like Roger do not count..... we are talking about humans here, not mutants...

[Dane]

Like Will and Bob are normal

 

Ya, right!

[spionin]

Guys like Roger do not count..... we are talking about humans here, not mutants...

 

i believe the latter moniker is still reserved for mr. alex lowe

[DPS]

Nice list.

[spiderman]

When I climbed Nemesis this year my partner and I had reached the base only to see a party starting up the first pitch. I immediately recognized the leader as one of the greatest ice/alpine climbers ever to set foot in the Rockies. So I figured it would be a quick wait, and my partner and I decided to ski around on the fluffy pow pow while we wait for our turn. We probably got to the base at 7:30 or so and this hero of mine(and every other climber in the world) finally got down at about 2:00pm. I think he had every right to be there, looked super solid, but VERY SLOW, and he didn't need to go climb a WI4. He obviously didn't meet the criteria of climbing each pitch in 20 minutes or less as Nemesis isn't that long of a climb. I just think that people move slower on harder climbs and milk rests. It doesn't mean they need to be on something easier. There is a difference between deliberately climbing slow and safe, and "Sketching" your way up something. I can spot the difference between the two types of climbers a mile away. There's the duche bag who sketches his way up something over his head slowly, and the bad ass who solidly and slowly climbs a hard route.

 

I love climbing fast and running it out "BIG" on WI5 and easier climbs. But when the climbing get WI5+ and harder, I slow down and have been known to milk a rest for 5 full minutes to completely de-pump. I suppose all I'm getting at is the time frames set forth above don't always apply.

[Bob Loomis]

Dear Fellow Climbers,

 

I thought more about Jake's earlier post on this thread regarding leader falls. First, he was polite and kind in the phrasing of his invitation to share ideas about falls, and second, there might emerge from a discussion of leader falls some valuable information. So I thought I would give it a try. Here goes.

 

1. I exclude from this any short falls (ex., bouldering near the ground, sport lead falls--clipping when the last bolt below you is at your ankles, etc.). It is not that they are irrelevant falls, it is just that I think Jake is more interested in longer ones ("screamers).

 

2. I have taken over the years "screamers" on traditional rock leads, aid pitches, waterfall ice, and long friction bolt leads (old Toulumne Meadows, old Squamish Apron, etc.). About two dozen real ones on rock, a few on ice, a few on aid, and a few on run-out friction. The scariest were the aid and friction pitches. On aid there is so much flying around I always got a bit banged up (and scared thinking the "zippering" of gear would never stop), and on the run-out friction there was too much time to think about it and get burned on the slide down. The longest I have sustained was about 30 meters, down to say 4-5 meters. Aside from bruises and contusions, only two broken bones (simple, not compund factures), and some bad ankle sprains. Some were with helmets, most were not. No head injuries--thankfully.

 

3. The easiest falls (mentally) were the ones I did not see coming just because I was caught by surpise. The worst were the ones I anticipated by a few seconds. The anticipation meant that I tensed up and rather than falling like a "rag doll" I fell scared and tense meaning I banged up more.

 

4. The biggest safety innovation for me with respect to falling was the advent of the sit harness. The first to show up, at least in Spokane, was summer 1975--the Whillans sit harness designed by Don Whillans for Everest (crude by today's standards--heavy, no gear loops, no padding, etc). Prior to that my few leader falls were onto a bowline on a coil or swami belt which really hurt and if you hung a long time you could sufficate from a collapsed diaphram. So I was super grateful to get a sit harness to climb in.

 

5. My leader falls on waterfall ice, thankfully, were ones I did not see coming. I am enough of a coward that if I thought I was going to take a for-real leader fall on ice, I would likely really tense up (thinking of all the sharp stuff, broken ankles, etc.) and likely get hurt more. My for-real leader falls on ice all came when my tools ripped through rotten ice, not due to losing balance, etc. Thankfully other than cuts and bruises, I came out of those okay.

 

6. There is a school of thought which says to acclimate to real leader falls one should go out and intentionally take some. I am reluctant to tell others what to do, but personally I am not a big fan of that school of thought--at least when it comes to "screamers" (might be okay for little baby falls onto a bolt that is right close and you are in an overhang--but then why bother--not much acclimating to fear going on is such a limited situation). For sure, I would not advise this for technical ice, it is just too serious a situation.

 

So in sum I think leading is not to be trivialized, and should be undertaked with an informed, clear mind. Each person has to decide for him/herself what is worth doing and what is not worth doing. Hope that helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

[cbcbd]

...I immediately recognized the leader as one of the greatest ice/alpine climbers ever to set foot in the Rockies. So I figured it would be a quick wait...

Funny, a couple friends of mine have a similar story about a very accomplished CA rockies climber they saw at a crag in NH. They were watching "someone" lead a climb and were noting how slow and deliberate he was. Only the next day did they realize that the slow climber was the same guy they paid to get a private climbing clinic with.

IMO, ice is very much about energy conservation.

[trainwreck]

Two hrs per pitch on Curtain Call this year as I remember Grant And you said...what? "easy WI5?" Oh, and remind me which ankle did you brake on that lead last year?

 

I was the first person to climb Curtain Call this year and it took the better part of two hours (or longer!) to do the first pitch. There was a ton of cleaning and I had to think through the moves as well as the pro. I went back and climbed the same pitch twice more as a second (the leader took 1:30ish) both times and it was considerably easier then the first time seeing as we had solid hooks, no cleaning, and knowledge of where to place the gear. I then went back and lead the first pitch in ~1:15-30 in solid WI6 shape. The second pitch was in WI5 shape this year and took no longer than 45mins both times I lead it.

 

So not two hours per pitch Dane, just the first, and only the first time I climbed it this year. The funny thing is that coming off of that two hour lead, I felt amazing. It felt like I had been climbing WI2 the whole time and I wasn't tired, sore or pumped. Just amped to keep moving higher and confident in my ability to comfortably climb the grade.

 

Will (and by association, Dane) are talking out their asses. Leading takes time (apparently that's OK in the alpine though) and a WI5-6 pitch will take as much time as necessary to avoid sketching up the thing. If it takes an hour (or two!) so be it; lead and learn. Perhaps when I've spent as many half hours as Will has leading ice I will also be able to claim that anyone unable to meet my standards should abandon what they're comfortable leading and try something that I think they should climb.

 

It was my right fibula and ruptured MCL in the ankle Dane, not leading, but walking down a snowslope.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess I should have tried an easier snowslope.

 

 

 

[climbingcoastie]

In response to Bob's #6 above:

 

While in Ouray during the ice fest I was watching a clinic being held. Some of the people were doing mock leads and were told to place 3-4 screws then climb about 10-15' above there last one and jump. The top rope belayer paid out enough slack for them to take the fall on the screw. I couldn't believe what I was seeing!!! All I could think of was one of them were going to catch a point and break an ankle.

 

The reason given was to know if you placed a good screw and be willing to trust it.

 

Am I missing something here?

I know what a good and a bad screw feels like going into the ice. I also know that good screws will hold in a fall and trust that.

[spiderman]

I think this practice is the most insane and reckless thing I've ever heard of anyone doing on ice!!! Holy Sh$# batman!

[layton]

That is crazy!

 

On an off note- I placed a Russian Ti Screw three threads in in shity hollow ice, loaded up a haul bag full of rocks, and hucked if off the top of the climb 3 times. After the 3rd time the screw buckled and bent, but it was still in there!

[summitchaserCJB]

Thats impressive layton. Aren't those expensive.

[layton]

no, they are like $15 or something! Plus it wasn't mine (thanks outdoor center)