AlpineK Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Among other things religion is a method of describing ethical behavior. I bet there are a lot of athiests that believe shoplifting and shooting people is wrong. The only difference is religious folks are more in the camp of being either book fans, or into a club. The bible, koran, etc tells me not to... Or, "The Pope wants me to..." The country can do just fine if we don't impose religious beliefs on everybody. BTW I believe in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I long considered myself "agnostic", but the longer I've lived and the more I've read, I've come to realize that I'm much more likely an atheist based on my real experiences and observations. Not that this arbitrary label means I have a new imperative or direction, of course. Part of the reason I was reluctant to admit this is the social stigma that is attached to having no belief, no faith, but I've come to recognize the moral cowardice of such a position. I don’t know any atheists, and there are many more out there than you think, who have an interest in abolishing freedom of religion. Myself included. I can really only reiterate or expand on what I’ve already said. For one, I do not know if my definitions are your definitions. So, I might be speaking an alien language? Feeling and spirituality are linked and inasmuch as feeling is suspect by some who consider it irrational, then spirituality will also be questioned. Yet, a man cannot cut off his head to spite his body or vice versa to remain whole. The prominent question as I see it surrounds the nature of Truth, not merely truth with a small t but that which stands for the eternal truth for humanity. For a partial explanation of this, I have to rely on the words of kindred spirits, the likes of Wittgenstein and Beethoven. As Beethoven said: "There is no loftier mission than to approach the Godhead more nearly than other mortals and by means of that contact to spread the rays of the Godhead through the human race." Wittgenstein himself was inspired by Tolstoy’s The Gospel in Brief. Make of it what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 "They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions and their sensations.” What they sought was to end the inter-colony religious competition and the intra-colony religious persecutions which were all to common between the various colonial religions. And it is completely self-delusional to think that people who are religious have any more capacity for feelings of any sort than atheists. It's exactly this sort of thinking that at its root is the 'them vs. us' I was speaking of upthread and just the sort of thinking Justice Brandeis was warning about. You are certainly free to be religious, I just happen to find it sad to see so many lives rooted in fear. And bug, please do in kind feel free to trot out any argument at all for god(s) that somehow leaves Tooth Fairies out of the mix. In Latin the phrase considered the de facto motto of the United States: e pluribus unum. Do you know what the official motto is? Is not your own unprofessed superiority that is at issue? Is that why you refer to the religious as if they were scared children? The atheist is the one who actually fears but denies it. He fears the irrationality of subjective feeling that is all too much a part of him which cannot be cut away despite the objections of his rational mind. Granted, religion has had its excesses in Dionysian frenzy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 "They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions and their sensations.” What they sought was to end the inter-colony religious competition and the intra-colony religious persecutions which were all to common between the various colonial religions. And it is completely self-delusional to think that people who are religious have any more capacity for feelings of any sort than atheists. It's exactly this sort of thinking that at its root is the 'them vs. us' I was speaking of upthread and just the sort of thinking Justice Brandeis was warning about. You are certainly free to be religious, I just happen to find it sad to see so many lives rooted in fear. And bug, please do in kind feel free to trot out any argument at all for god(s) that somehow leaves Tooth Fairies out of the mix. I give up. OK I'll play along. You are an idiot. Where do you think those quarters come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) I've learned so much about myself here. I'd admit to my fears of, of...I'm not sure I caught exactly what, but then, I don't have normal human feelings anyway. That, and I don't really give a shit what some jaggoff decided to print on my spare change. I should probably just be gassed, I suppose. For the good of the Union, and all that. Our society can't really afford people who are not whole under The Lord. We're just not, you know, really with The Program. Except that the kind of Christian Fascism being sold here is on its way out, so I'll hang around a bit longer, God willing, to see what happens. Fighting their legislative agenda every step of the way, of course. I mean, who doesn't love to defeat a fascist? Edited November 22, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 But, but you just replied to... FW and I have a special relationship I had that MEC long underwear once too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 with or without the embroidery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 Hi Stonehead: Based on communist doctrine and history you seem to be making the case that atheism is inseparable from, and inclusive of, an insidious political agenda as well as being merely a (lack of a) belief system. In other words, what I'm hearing is: all communists are atheists, therefore the opposite is inherently true also. There are demonstrable truisms that relate to religion and politics, ie: Catholicism lends itself to feudalism. Protestantism lends itself to capitalism. Atheism lends itself to communism. Islam lends itself to theocratic dictatorships. etc... ...but there are always exceptions and outliers. Not sure why Stone's thesis would upset you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 But, but you just replied to... FW and I have a special relationship I had that MEC long underwear once too Show me whea dem green bishes is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Black or white or panty lines. Take your pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 [video:youtube]iL_RbCGxqsc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Atheism lends itself to communism. I'd say that right there is one of your genuwhinely demonstrable moronisms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Let's hear it for more of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Not sure why Stone's thesis would upset you. Well, FW, despite knowing where your own heart and values lie, how about having one's views on spirituality directly equated to Nazism, Communism, Genocide, and a broad and uninformed assessment that one "lacks deep feeling" and spirituality by someone who simply doesn't see things the way you see them? I thought his post deserved a response. Most people think the world would be a better place if only everyone thought like them, and the major faiths of the world in most cases specifically direct their followers to make this happen either by social/political action, or violence. Some atheists have done this also, but somehow they are singled out above all others. An unorganized and politically powerless group of socially ostracized people whose crime is an observation that religion is not rational are to be feared above the vast political power of the Christian and Catholic churches or the brutal Islamic Sharia-law seeking totalitarians? Anyone of any faith or lack thereof with an ounce of sense knows that conversion, embrace, or abandonment of faith is entirely an internal and personal matter and one that cannot ever be forced upon another whether by a state, faction, or coercion. I think it would be much harder to come to this view with the yoke of a faith that instructs me otherwise. The recognition of this matter of individual choice on spiritual matters is one of the great things about the idea behind the formation of the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Atheism lends itself to communism. I'd say that right there is one of your genuwhinely demonstrable moronisms. It's not my theory. Read up. Did I hit a nerve or something? It's sad watching people like you grow old... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 JH has hemeroids. Be gentle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Atheism lends itself to communism. I'd say that right there is one of your genuwhinely demonstrable moronisms. It's not my theory. Read up. Did I hit a nerve or something? It's sad watching people like you grow old... It may not be your theory, in which case we have a moron channeling an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Atheism lends itself to communism. I'd say that right there is one of your genuwhinely demonstrable moronisms. It's not my theory. Read up. Did I hit a nerve or something? It's sad watching people like you grow old... I'm not particularly concerned who the moron is, just that moronic drivel like this continues to circulate among the uneducated like a bad meme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Not sure why Stone's thesis would upset you. Well, FW, despite knowing where your own heart and values lie, how about having one's views on spirituality directly equated to Nazism, Communism, Genocide, and a broad and uninformed assessment that one "lacks deep feeling" and spirituality by someone who simply doesn't see things the way you see them? I thought his post deserved a response. Most people think the world would be a better place if only everyone thought like them, and the major faiths of the world in most cases specifically direct their followers to make this happen either by social/political action, or violence. Some atheists have done this also, but somehow they are singled out above all others. An unorganized and politically powerless group of socially ostracized people whose crime is an observation that religion is not rational are to be feared above the vast political power of the Christian and Catholic churches or the brutal Islamic Sharia-law seeking totalitarians? Anyone of any faith or lack thereof with an ounce of sense knows that conversion, embrace, or abandonment of faith is entirely an internal and personal matter and one that cannot ever be forced upon another whether by a state, faction, or coercion. I think it would be much harder to come to this view with the yoke of a faith that instructs me otherwise. The recognition of this matter of individual choice on spiritual matters is one of the great things about the idea behind the formation of the United States. Right, I get it. The religious folks are the real bad guys. But the joke is actually the liberal's declaration of tolerance which masks his intolerance. A day may come when religious preference of belief and action is reduced to mere window dressing to appease the liberal's sense of the state-imposed ideal society. What was written (the purported demonization) is the same medicine the liberal tries to force on his opponent whether it be the conservative, the libertarian, or whatnot but suddenly he doesn't like the taste of it? Understand that history has its changing currents so it pays to auger which way the wind blows. In the case of Board of Education of Kiryas Joel vs. Grumet Supreme Court Justice Souter wrote for the majority saying: “government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion.” So in the latter part of that statement in his opinion is he not basically siding with the atheists? You may not be a politically active atheist but there are definitely those that are militant in imposing their view intent on silencing religion. Some think that hate crime legislation may be the beginning of the regulation of religious belief. If you are libertarian in mind, then none of this applies to you. So why bother? We do after all have the establishment clause of the first amendment which supports the separation of church and state. No one forces you to believe anything regarding religion. It is the free exercise clause that concerns me. So far, the courts have upheld the 1st amendment with regards to the use of controlled substances (drugs) as a central sacrament of religious ritual. These rulings have a bearing on the practice of religion. GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v. O CENTRO ESPIRITA BENEFICENTE UNIAO DOVEGETAL et al. Court Upholds Religious Exemption For Importation and Use of Daime Tea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 The joke is in your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Confucius say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 That's funny, since I learned it at a local university. But the real issue here is the shrinking radius of your aging brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 That's funny, since I learned it at a local university. But the real issue here is the shrinking radius of your aging brain. Well, as someone who's taught at a couple of universities I can tell you there's no shortage of driveling profs in them - sounds like you got one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 That's funny, since I learned it at a local university. But the real issue here is the shrinking radius of your aging brain. Well, as someone who's taught at a couple of universities I can tell you there's no shortage of driveling profs in them - sounds like you got one of them. You'll have to talk to the good people at UW about that, but a search with your full name + professor reveals nothing. Your writing skills and general disposition also give me pause vis a vis your claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I've had profs who taught shit-faced drunk, profs who forgot what they were lecturing about mid-class, profs who stood up in front of classes and said "Hey, they can't fire me. I've got tenure". Academia is just as full of buffoons as any other walk of life. It doesn't take too much higher education to realize that...for most of us, anyway. Some students, well, are a bit slower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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