Look for the union label!

[JayB]

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."

 

okay fine, but did adam smith really foresee just how far and with what force industrial corporations would thrust their vast thorny cocks up the ass of the working man? how would that oft-raped class be a single bit better had unions been broken in their infancy?

 

Given that he was alive during during an age when the dwindling embers of feudalism were still glowing in pockets here and there, and the hereditary aristocracy played a meaningful role in society, it's difficult to argue that he was unacquainted with what happened to people when they had no mechanism with which to hinder the exercise of arbitrary economic power. Given the proliferation of guilds in Europe at the time, it's reasonable to conclude that he had a fair opportunity to evaluate the extent to which they furthered the public interest as well.

 

I don't think the quote above is indicative of any particular disdain that Smith had for tradesmen who were attempting to increase prices for whatever they were selling by restricting competition and preventing the public from buying similar wares at a lower price from someone else. He was simply pointing out the reality that by doing so they were imposing excess costs on the public with the intention of accruing the benefits of doing so in their own hands. This was part of a larger discussion about the aggregate effects that partitioning the economy into a collection of state sanctioned cartels would invariably have on the overall level of prosperity in a given country.

 

He seemed fundamentally Madisonian in his distrust of any particular group's capacity to use exclusive commercial powers or privileges they'd been granted on another group's behalf, particularly in order to benefit that other group or advance their interest. I think that was in part because he doubted whether or not it was actually possible for them to reliably know what was in another's true interest, much less put their interests on par with their own when the two were in conflict.

 

There are probably other quotes out there that make the point better than these, but it's clear in his work that he didn't think that groups of tradesmen were uniquely flawed in this respect:

 

"It is the highest impertinence and presumption, therefore, in kings and ministers to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, and to restrain their expense. They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. Let them look well after their own expense, and they may safely trust private people with theirs."

 

"This total exemption from trouble and from risk, beyond a limited sum, encourages many people to become adventurers in joint stock companies who would, upon no account, hazard their own fortunes in any private copartnery. The directors of such companies, however, being the managers rather of other people's money than their own, it cannot well be expected that they should watch over it with the same anxious vigilance with which the partners in a private copartnery frequently watch over their own."

 

With respect to modern-day unions, it's not like they're unique in attempting to forcibly extract wealth from the public by eliminating or restricting competition. Virtually every commercial enterprise large enough to lobby any level of government is engaged in efforts to get the government to rig the game on their behalf, and at the public's expense. It's one thing to recognize that, it's another to acquiesce to it, much less applaud it when you're the one being forced to pay more than you would otherwise.

 

With respect to the role of unions in the past, even if you accept all of the claims about unions and unions alone being responsible for getting various worker rights and protections signed into law, it doesn't follow that the public should be forced to pay royalties in perpetuity to present day union members for whatever services they may have rendered in the past.

 

With commercial unions in the present, most of the time there's are some competitors out there, no matter how hobbled which limits their capacity to forcibly extract wealth from consumers. This is why any union that imposes costs on employers that exceed whatever (hypothetical) increase in output that union members generate relative to their non-union counterparts are doomed to extinction unless they somehow manage to secure legislation that bans competition outright. Even a hobbled competitor is often sufficient to put the likes of GM under, and if not innovation and/or substitution will.

 

In the case of public sector unions, there's are no constraints imposed by competition, and the public is materially worse of for every dollar of excess compensation that the public sector unions, or unions contracts funded with public money, secure over and above what they'd get under competitive conditions. The public could either get the same output with lower taxes, or get more output for the same level of taxes. That's true whether you're talking about bridges or file clerks at the DMV.

 

It's clear how this benefits public sector unions and unions that depend on public sector contracts, or legislation that restricts competition, but it's not clear how it benefits the public.*

 

Before anyone chimes in with the shopworn fallacies about unions, rather than productivity, increasing real wages, or paying workers "enough to buy the product" it's worth noting that somehow the guys making yachts and lear-jets manage to get by with salaries that are far less than necessary to own either, and to observe that there's no shortage of countries in the world where the workers are both dirt poor and heavily unionized.

 

 

[JayB]

in JayB parlance it means that people are supposed to negotiate with owners-managers one on one, because it is so much more expedient that way.

 

All trades haves associations including doctors, lawyers that lobby for their professions, yet I never heard JayB complain about those. Trade associations have existed for almost a millenium and they are likely to be around for a while longer.

 

1. If another employer is offering a better deal, it's clear that negotiating with their existing employer isn't the only option that they have for securing better pay, wages, etc. If no one else anywhere is offering a better deal, that's a sign that you're being payed the maximal price for what your skillset is worth.

 

If the public sees that people with skillset X aren't making much money, and want to boost their income, a negative income tax like the EIC is a superior mechanism for doing so than collective bargaining, as it neither prices the employee out of a job or his employer out of a market, and you can calibrate the magnitude of the benefit more precisely.

 

The problem for the folks that work building planes for Boeing is that they know that the second they step out the door they're looking at an immediate and substantial pay-cut in virtually all cases since they're being paid above market rates for their skillset, and even if they accept lower wages elsewhere they'll still be at wage levels above which the public is likely to feel moved to cough up tax money to supplement their incomes.

 

2. See above.

[t_rutl]

most of those who run unions are scum

 

most of those who assimilate union leaders to scum are corporate tools

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

[j_b]

in JayB parlance it means that people are supposed to negotiate with owners-managers one on one, because it is so much more expedient that way.

 

All trades haves associations including doctors, lawyers that lobby for their professions, yet I never heard JayB complain about those. Trade associations have existed for almost a millenium and they are likely to be around for a while longer.

 

1. If another employer is offering a better deal, it's clear that negotiating with their existing employer isn't the only option that they have for securing better pay, wages, etc. If no one else anywhere is offering a better deal, that's a sign that you're being payed the maximal price for what your skillset is worth.

 

If the public sees that people with skillset X aren't making much money, and want to boost their income, a negative income tax like the EIC is a superior mechanism for doing so than collective bargaining, as it neither prices the employee out of a job or his employer out of a market, and you can calibrate the magnitude of the benefit more precisely.

 

The problem for the folks that work building planes for Boeing is that they know that the second they step out the door they're looking at an immediate and substantial pay-cut in virtually all cases since they're being paid above market rates for their skillset, and even if they accept lower wages elsewhere they'll still be at wage levels above which the public is likely to feel moved to cough up tax money to supplement their incomes.

 

2. See above.

 

Practicing voodoo economics enables you to reach any conclusions you want, but it is clearly not science. Social and environmental dumping temporarily enables employers to drive the cost of labor down but it has the nasty side effect of destroying the tax base that enabled the technological and social avances that are necessary to remain economically competitive. Eventually, and not too distantly in the future, the skill set of american workers will be just enough to make pizza and there won't be enough tax revenues to fuel the military machine that ensures access to resources, then the rats will jump ship.

[j_b]

most of those who run unions are scum

 

most of those who assimilate union leaders to scum are corporate tools

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

 

the problem with people like you is when they really believe that performance drives the gravy train that characterizes the modern economy.

[ivan]

uh, so what's this argument about again? doesn't seem like anyone's saying unions have no place, just that, like every other part of the body politic, they need checks and balances, yes?

[G-spotter]

Union Corse anyone?

[t_rutl]

most of those who run unions are scum

 

most of those who assimilate union leaders to scum are corporate tools

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

 

the problem with people like you is when they really believe they are entitled to certain aspects of life that are privileges...not rights

 

work itself being one...12 weeks of vacation being one...a wage increase above and beyond the standard of living increase in exchange for doing no more work being one...seniority and tenure being put in place of work ethic, capability and overall performance being one...and like little children throwing temper tantrums you yell strike when you dont get what you want

 

try setting up for a trade show and a union boss telling you that you cant touch your own display because they have "jurisdiction" and if you want it up you have to pay then a ridiculous wage that any person who can read can do...so a project that should cost $100 all of a sudden becomes a several thousand dollar expense...all so some fat fuckstick can roll around on a forklift, smoking a cigarette, spitting on the ground can have a "job" because he paid his union dues and go about living his poor measly excuse of a life

 

trying being the head of a department not being able to fire somebody for being late or failing a drug test because you need to "counsel" them adequately and give grace under their union protection...fuck that...you fuck up on a consistent basis get the fuck out...no questions asked...but nooo...that cant happen or you get sued

 

or the UAW...god dont get me started on the UAW

 

the worst part is seeing tax dollars pissed down the drain at the expense of union strong armed "rights" birthed out of a sense of entitlement...its one thing for a private company to suffer but when its one funded by tax dollars...that shit is outa control...no wonder we cant afford to pay teachers better or cover more medical expenses...yes...unions are good

 

granted before the media and all the laws on the books unions helped protect so many millions of people over the years that were being subject to so serious shit by business owners...but that time is passed and the current concept of a union needs to be tied to a tree and put out Old Yeller style...12 gauge between the eyes

 

[t_rutl]

uh, so what's this argument about again? doesn't seem like anyone's saying unions have no place, just that, like every other part of the body politic, they need checks and balances, yes?

 

in a sense...i think they bring some good things to the table...but in many cases can do much more harm than good

[j_b]

uh, so what's this argument about again? doesn't seem like anyone's saying unions have no place,

 

I’ll believe it the day JayB starts pontificating at least as much about the much more costly extraction of public wealth by corporations in many economic sectors. This argument is as much about what is being said as about what isn't being said. Discussing unions only in term of their potential to screw the public in a day and age when most workers don’t make a living wage, competition to wages is essentially the result of social dumping (no pensions, no healthcare, widespread tax evasion, ..), and it’s effectively illegal to organize in an increasing number of regions, seems like a cruel joke.

 

just that, like every other part of the body politic, they need checks and balances, yes?

 

agreed but first it has to be stated that unions like other social/community organizations play an essential role in a democracy. Given the lengthy union busting history of the right wing and their recurrent handing over of the coffers to industry barons, they clearly can't be trusted to provide appropriate checks and balances.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

most of those who run unions are scum

 

most of those who assimilate union leaders to scum are corporate tools

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

 

Read Wayne's post.

 

Oh, and you're a way shittier climber, too.

[tvashtarkatena]

Anybody know any Republifucks who can climb worth shit?

 

Or fuck worth shit, for that matter?

 

Yeah, that about sums it up.

[tvashtarkatena]

If I ever catch up with t rutl, I'm going to rape his eye socket.

 

 

I fuckin hate fascists

[ivan]

Anybody know any Republifucks who can climb worth shit?

the best climbers are nihilists dude

 

and lemme tell you, it's exhausting

[Frikadeller]

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

 

I just think you are are a tool.

 

My kind bleeds and die for your kind to make a "bonus"

 

Go fuck your self.

 

 

BTW, with out us, you would still be shitting in an out house.

 

But: On another note, I am sure whatever shitty industry you work in, without the "Union" I am sure there are hordes of educated, trained and seasoned workers at your disposal that will take that generous $8.50 an hour job that those rip off "union" guys have been doing.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

most of those who run unions are scum

 

most of those who assimilate union leaders to scum are corporate tools

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

 

j_b doesn't have any useful skills... but wants a big pay check and security nevertheless

[Choada_Boy]

Anybody know any Republifucks who can climb worth shit?

the best climbers are nihilists dude

 

and lemme tell you, it's exhausting

 

I believe in nothing and I still climb like shit? What gives?

 

Regardless, one could also add that the "prosperity" that followed WWII was in fact due to the increasing use of credit, in addition to hard working union members. Gotta love wage slavery!

[ivan]

if that bitch eve hadn't eaten that apple nor her fuckup son cain killed his brother, we wouldn't have any of these fawk'n problems!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

 

I just think you are are a tool.

 

My kind bleeds and die for your kind to make a "bonus"

 

Go fuck your self.

 

 

BTW, with out us, you would still be shitting in an out house.

 

But: On another note, I am sure whatever shitty industry you work in, without the "Union" I am sure there are hordes of educated, trained and seasoned workers at your disposal that will take that generous $8.50 an hour job that those rip off "union" guys have been doing.

 

Was your car built in a union shop?

 

 

[Frikadeller]

 

rather be a corporate tool than union scum

 

at least i'm an asset by perfomance rather than a liability by sense of entitlement

 

I just think you are are a tool.

 

My kind bleeds and die for your kind to make a "bonus"

 

Go fuck your self.

 

 

BTW, with out us, you would still be shitting in an out house.

 

But: On another note, I am sure whatever shitty industry you work in, without the "Union" I am sure there are hordes of educated, trained and seasoned workers at your disposal that will take that generous $8.50 an hour job that those rip off "union" guys have been doing.

 

Was your car built in a union shop?

 

 

My work wan was built in Ohio, and yes, in a Union shop.

 

My personal car, was built in a Union shop in Canada.

 

Any other questions?

[Fairweather]

I just think you are are a tool.

 

My kind bleeds and die for your kind to make a "bonus"

 

Go fuck your self.

 

 

Plumbers are dying on the job?

[Frikadeller]

I just think you are are a tool.

 

My kind bleeds and die for your kind to make a "bonus"

 

Go fuck your self.

 

 

Plumbers are dying on the job?

 

Well, we do bleed. My blood is involved in that urinal you piss in... (that means I cut my self on the that damn thing when I installed it...)

 

When was the last time your blood was involved in YOUR job?

 

 

On the "Dying" note: a few years ago, I was on a crew that was building a "Pearl" district condo. One of the Plumbers was in a shaft, tying in some waste lines, when he lost his grip. His tie in point failed and he fell 100' down the shaft, and died in the hospital a few days later. So, yeah, some of us die making sure you can shit in a toilet.

 

[Fairweather]

At least Plumber's and electrician's unions still have a training/apprenticeship program that promotes quality work and pride amongst the membership. If no one else can do the same quality work, then yes, these unions can reasonably extract market prices. My real complaint is with public employee unions or various other unions who's only purpose seems to be extracting blood from the cow until it passes out.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

[

When was the last time your blood was involved in YOUR job?

 

dude, I can't tell you how many times I've stapled myself in the forehead with my red Swingline.

 

it was intentional though.

 

[billcoe]

When was the last time your blood was involved in YOUR job?

 

Do papercuts and ping pong accidents count cause if they do I'll be jumping in right here in a big way.

 

 

Jus sayin'....