sobo Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 How about getting run over by a power boat in a sail boat: http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/justice.asp That case against Bismark Dinius is just pure fucking BULLSHIT! YTF isn't the powerboat driver taking the manslaughter charge up the ass, instead of the sailboat rudderman?? That's a pretty fucked up court, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 WOW.. i hadn't heard of that before.. pigs protecting pigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Interesting boating story. Gary, it is most useful, when comparing the dangers of mountain climbing to other activities, to only compare it to activities that folks choose to do, ostensibly for recreation. So driving to work isn't a fair comparison. But motorcrossing is a fair comparison activity. Or power boating. Or resort skiing. It would be interesting to see those kind of statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Participating in a 'high risk' activity can reduce other risks, so it's hard to parse things out unless you look at overall lifestyle risk. Alpine climbing requires a certain level of fitness, which reduces the risk of dying earlier than normal of many of the leading causes of death in America, such as congestive heart failure. It also rewards anticipatory behavior, particularly under stress, which may reduce risks in other areas. Finally, it's incredibly satisfying and there's nothing quite like it for reducing stress. Is the life expectancy of an alpine climber shorter or longer than those who do not alpine climb? It doesn't matter to me either way because living is about quality, not quantity. Not living fully during your prime seems like a poor tradeoff for a few mores years drooling into your cream of wheat. Edited August 13, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Well said, Patrick. Humorously, I had a friend back in the college days who was an avid weight lifter. Ironically, in a tongue-in-cheek way, he once quipped that he didn't understand why people tried to be all healthy like when they were young just so they could live a few years longer at the end of their lives. He said, these people that spend their younger lives working out are missing out on other more interesting things they could be doing just so they could perhaps extend their older lives where they are too old to do anything interesting. Instead they engage in knitting or playing bingo or doddering around the house straightening up the kitsch and trinkets on their counter tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peakpimp Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I've been a motorcyclist since I was just a wee little one. My mom would prop me up on the gas tank and putt around the yard when I was just a toddler. All of my family vacations as a child were taken on the back of my parents motorcycles, my sister on the back of one, me on the other. Once I was old enough I just bought my own. Still after years of riding experience I always equate the craziness of whatever I happen to be doing at the time to the scariest moments I've had cycling, such as riding home from Marysville to Seattle in a snowstorm with no glasses (after they fogged up), and going 155 mph on some deserted backcountry road. Whenever I find myself in a hairy situation I think well at least its not as crazy as (fill in random scary motorcycle incident here). Although I was taught well that there is a time and place for everything so for the most part I just putt around town, which has afforded me 20 years of riding with only a small handful of close calls. I have non-climbing friends that think climbing is some of the most stupid, crazy stuff you can do, and I have climbed with people who say they would never touch a motorcycle with a ten foot pole. I've always thought, "well if climbers think motorcycling is so dangerous than it must be, more so than climbing." Ironically my mom has since told me that she always worries more about me when I'm out motorcycling than she does when I'm out climbing. Speaking of which, I am looking for motorcycle/climbing partners to go for a nice ride with out to the crags for some climbing. Coincidentally most climbing destinations also happen to feature some of the best motorcycle riding around to access them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 ^^^ unroped 4th class in boots will always scare me more than roped 5th Agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 ^^^ unroped 4th class in boots will always scare me more than roped 5th One incident I had in mind was Mt. Dickerman in Feb. The trail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Not living fully during your prime seems like a poor tradeoff for a few mores years drooling into your cream of wheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 There are a lot more variables in play in the mountains than at most rock climbing crags. We each develop our own risk profile. It's probably best to climb with people who have similar risk profiles and to generally refrain from imposing our own ideas about risk on other adults as they should be free to make their own choices. "Fall mountains, just don't fall on me......." "I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die. So let me live my life the way I want to" If 6 Was 9. James Marshall Hendrix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwebster Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Driving in a car in heavy traffic in the rain in seattle at 65 is one of the scariest things I've done. If one person blows it, things go downhill fast. But you do have that steel body around you, airbags, etc. You will probably survive. Motorcyclists are another story. Dad was a newspaper reporter. He got called out to photograph one too many motorcycle wrecks involving fatalities and told me to never, ever ride a motorcycle. My daughters friend in high school lost a leg in a motorcycle wreck. My son wanted a motorcycle for a while. But now that he works as an ER room nurse at Tacoma General, he has changed his mind. He has seen some double fatalities on motorcycles. Dead on arrival. There is no safety cage like a car. Why do it? Back to climbing... At crags, flakes get pulled on a lot. They are usually lower elevation, so less freeze thaw action. In the mountains, less traffic, more ice in winter, avalanches, benighted, route finding, etc. Mountains are continually falling down, in small pieces, it's what they do. Sue and I had one too many close calls alpine climbing, we saw the writing on the wall, and went to a few funerals...he died doing what he loved, etc, etc. What a load of crap to tell your son who now doesn't have a father. I've known at least 8 people who died alpine climbing, starting with Devi Unsoeld and her father Willi. Carl Shneider, another pair who died on Liberty ridge, and recently Jonny Copp, pictured here on the left, last xmas new years eve, jtree, jamming with me on the harmonica, his girlfriend on the violin. She was very, very lovely, I can't imagine her pain. Gonna miss that guy at jtree. Is it worth the increased chance of not seeing your children grow up? But hey, it's a free country, I love looking at your pictures. For me, I love cragging, and it's enough to get my adrenaline fix while keeping the variables somewhat under control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_rutl Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Not living fully during your prime seems like a poor tradeoff for a few mores years drooling into your cream of wheat. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 For some reason whenever the discussion turns to the relative risks of cragging vs alpine climbing, I think of Goran Kropp and his tragic death at Vantage a few years ago. If we're dealing in broad generalities, alpine climbing is definitely has more objective risks than cragging. But...how about roped climbing at the crags vs low-end scrambling, etc, etc, etc. No matter what aspect of climbing or any other risky sport you're into, in just about every case it's possible to tweak and minimize the risks so that they at least have the appearance an acceptable tradeoff relative to their benefits for whatever stage of life you're at, but it's never possible to eliminate them completely. In attempting to do so, it's possible that you're hastening your path to the grave in other ways that are less obvious but equally significant. I made a conscious effort to try to push things harder than I might have otherwise when climbing and elsewhere over the past ten years so that I when the time came to scale back the risks, I'd have enough of skill, experience, confidence, competence etc to enjoy most of the same stuff with plenty of margin. Hopefully I've stacked the deck enough to tip the odds in my favor, but this and other accidents make it clear that there's an element of wishful thinking in that plan. While its clear that losing a parent in a preventable accident represents a staggering tragedy for a child, abandoning all of the joys and passions and challenges that make you who you are, and that they might derive a lifetime's worth of joy and memories from sharing with you also has a certain cost for both parent and child. Seems like most folks find a way to stay alive for their kids without killing big parts of themselves in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa_D Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Avalanches have killed anyone I know who died in the mtns. Most accidents I have seen or heard about involved gullies. Biking is dangerous. Though I'm a defensive biker who sticks to bike-friendly roads and avoids riding during rush hour, I've had more scares while biking in Seattle than while climbing. During race season, I see a lot of crashes (particularly among the younger guys.) There is a lot going on and many, many more opportunities for something bad to happen: potholes, blind corners, car doors, hundreds of cars, drunk drivers, people texting while driving, etc. But if I had to make a choice, I'd die in the mountains, and I think it would be due to something beyond my control. I'd rather be the victim of the powers of nature than get run over by an overweight motorist, talking on their cell phone, who just had to get to that red light 3 seconds earlier. I need to think happy thoughts now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 It's amazing how everyone is "safer than average" and "mitigates risk" when alpine climbing. Like how everyone is a better than average driver. Given the number of "good climbers" who die each year I'd say the statistics are spot on and most have that risk - which is higher for alpine climbing than trad climbing and sport bolt clipping is lower than both, and gym toproping even less. Is this really a big fucking surprise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Somewhere between my comfort zone and what I think is totally insane is where I try to climb. Too comfy and I get complacent, too scary and I just get pissed off. A small dose of adrenaline, just a taste, and I'm good. We all talk about how you can do everything right and still get whacked, but I think the reverse is way more common, we can get away with plenty of stupid shit almost every time. Oh we learn and get better at avoiding those situations but there are lots of chances to fuck up in the hills. Maybe its just me but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponderosa Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 It's amazing how everyone is "safer than average" and "mitigates risk" when alpine climbing. Like how everyone is a better than average driver. Given the number of "good climbers" who die each year I'd say the statistics are spot on and most have that risk - which is higher for alpine climbing than trad climbing and sport bolt clipping is lower than both, and gym toproping even less. Is this really a big fucking surprise? I'm told my alpine ice motorcycle climbing is too sketch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 ...living a life of quiet desperation, going to your grave with the song still in you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peakpimp Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I've seen that bike before Ponderosa. What a badass machine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 About 1.5M Americans have served in Iraq or Afghanistan. About 5000 have died, making the odds about 1 in 300, which is about the same as the fatality rate for summit attempts on Denali. The fatality rate on Everest is about 1 in 20. The fatality rate on Rainier is about 1 in 10000. You're not taking into account non mortal combat wounds, and the speed and access with which a medevac can swoop down, and transport someone to top of the line medical facilities. I have personally known about a dozen people killed in war, and very few people killed climbing. I also race motorcycles and mountain bikes and would say both of those sports have a higher chance for injury than climbing. Still, something about climbing has a way of making me crap my pants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Also creek boating is probably a lot more dangerous than climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Alpine driving is dangerous too. http://www.kmbc.com/cnn-news/20414373/detail.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 is it okay for me to feel a little bemused by a marketing vp being killed by a rock falling down a mountain while driving back to fuck-all flat kansas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbcbd Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I think trees are the real problem. We should cut down as many of them as we can. "One woman riding a motorcycle with her husband died after a tree fell on her." http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060620/REPOSITORY/606200339/1028/OPINION02 http://www.wndu.com/localnews/headlines/51749807.html "A Mount Healthy woman sitting at her computer was killed when a tree fell onto a back room of her house" http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20080915/NEWS01/309160014/-1/winds/Three+killed+by+falling+trees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 It's amazing how everyone is "safer than average" and "mitigates risk" when alpine climbing. Like how everyone is a better than average driver. Given the number of "good climbers" who die each year I'd say the statistics are spot on and most have that risk - which is higher for alpine climbing than trad climbing and sport bolt clipping is lower than both, and gym toproping even less. Is this really a big fucking surprise? It's not a surprise that there's a continuous gradient in risk. What's more of a surprise is how there is a discontinuous step between one level of risk and another as far as someone's perceptions. A good example is how paragliding off of peaks never really took off here because it was too risky, whereas it seems the sport has critical mass over in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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