Comments on aliens...

[RuMR]

Apologies if already posted...

[korup]

If you're climbing on Aliens, you haven't been paying attention. The string of defects and bush league response from CCH is beyond a joke.

[RuMR]

totally agree...

[VPOVancouver]

http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/cableTest.html

http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/drop_7.html

 

Clearly, this is a company that has had it's share of difficulties in the past, but they have made efforts to improve their production and my understanding is that every unit they produce is now load tested to half its breaking strength before leaving the factory.

 

From my personal experience using Aliens, I can say definitively that I have never used a better camming device. I have not had any failures or problems of any kind after 3 seasons use. Several of my long-time climbing partners have taken repeated massive whippers (30+ feet) more times than can be counted and they have not experienced any problems whatsoever.

 

In regards to the information from the initial post, the tests were performed on units which had clearly been subjected to heavy use, therefore the validity of the tests is nullified. All lab tests conducted on new units by CCH in the past several years has shown them to meet necessary safety requirements.

 

Ultimately, personal preference will factor heavily into anyone's decision when buying camming units, but for those who prize a lightweight, incredibly flexible unit that fits into virtually any placement, I think Aliens are a clear front runner.

 

[JosephH]

http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/cableTest.html

Clearly, this is a company that has had it's share of difficulties in the past, but they have made efforts to improve their production and my understanding is that every unit they produce is now load tested to half its breaking strength before leaving the factory.

 

Aren't you the good little cheerleader! You definitely haven't been following the saga, know the score, or understand what's being said yet again here in the fifth round. CCH's problems remain firmly rooted in the present, not in the past. As the lastest round of tests show, there's still a lot of bad pre-recall, recalled, and post-recall Aliens out there. Multiple 'Tensile Tested' post-recall Aliens have failed. This is in no way a one-time QC bauble - it's clear and enduring incompetence year after year and the sure sign a small craft shop failed badly in the attempt to make the leap to big box supplier.

 

There's only two things you can count on: a) that your Aliens aren't one of them and b) CCH's indelible garage culture isn't going to be changing because you wish it would.

 

But hey, I'm sure your Aliens are just fine...

[hemp22]

Interesting testimonial from the gear shop that doesn't appear to carry aliens.

 

you're over-reaching a little when saying the results of that test are null. someone could just as easily say that the results of the test of your climbing partners is too small a sample size, and also null.

 

 

[genepires]

I admit that I bought several aliens after the debacle and rei put them on a heavily discounted sale. So I carry some on the back of the harness for those "oh shit" placements. It seems when I can't get a tcu in, the aliens usually make it happen. Granted I have never fallen on one, but disregarding the strength issue, the design is very nice for hard to get placements. I hope I got a good one.

[mkporwit]

The red cam was well pre-recall and seems to show a lack of quality control given the lack of proper brazing.

 

The purple cam failed below its rated strength due to suspected, but so far unverified, improper specifications on the steel axle. Add to that the suspected, but so far unverified, improper specifications on the aluminum lobes...

 

I have a bunch of post-recall aliens that I absolutely love, but every time I see something like this a little bit of that love dies and I'm tempted to put them up for sale or send them to an independent lab for pull testing...

[mkporwit]

Someone here must work at Boeing and can get access to a couple of calibrated load cells, can't they? Or maybe someone in the UW Engineering school? Pretty please?

[JosephH]

I believe the RC.com user 'adatesman', the OP of the latest Alien thread over there, would be happy to test them for you for a small fee.

[VPOVancouver]

Hey Hemp22,

 

To clarify, we do carry Aliens and have done so for several years now.

 

As I am no expert in the field of metallurgy, I most certainly cannot say what constitutes a valid test, nor a sufficient sample size. However, I do believe the point to be valid that testing of damaged gear of any sort yields little in the way of valid results, though it is interesting to learn of the degradation of strength that occurs from use and exposure.

 

I would suspect that cams from other manufacturers would undergo a comparable loss of strength when subjected to similar conditions, though in truth it is merely a supposition.

 

You are correct that my experiences and those of my climbing partners are in no way an indication that all cams built by CCH are safe, but from taking and witnessing literally hundreds of lead falls from a few inches to stomach-churning, my experiences have been quite positive. In the end, first-hand knowledge and experiences are the best I can offer in any discussion; hopefully, it helps to create a complete picture of users' experiences.

 

 

 

 

[JosephH]

I would suspect that cams from other manufacturers would undergo a comparable loss of strength when subjected to similar conditions, though in truth it is merely a supposition.

I would suspect quite the contrary, I've seen Metolius cams that were ruthlessly [ab]used by a notorious desert crack / alpine big-wall hardman, each of those cams took an endless litany of big falls while covered with grit. Along the way their wire stems were contorted, mangled, and even showed large open spots in the stem wires. They kept holding and I suspect would still pull test fine. I don't think BD Camalots would have taken the same beating quite as long and still operated, but I bet they'd still test out as well.

 

 

In the end, first-hand knowledge and experiences are the best I can offer in any discussion; hopefully, it helps to create a complete picture of users' experiences.

I'm sure that will complete the picture for the last casualty of a failed Alien. If the issue were about all the well-assembled, solid Aliens out on climbers' racks we would all simply rejoice and go home happy - unfortunately it isn't. The issue is the unwillingness and inability of CCH to make the [technical and cultural] changes necessary to insure every Alien that leaves their shop is solid and dependable. Round after round, and year after year, what this saga keeps showing again and again is if you haven't taken a serious dive on any particular Alien, tested it yourself, or had a third party do so, then you're gambling every time you place that piece and that applies to any production generation - pre-recall, recalled, or post-recall.

 

That may be totally cool with you, but your comments are basically saying "hey, mine didn't break and I haven't died or been hurt so it's all good..." I can't tell which is more irresponsible as a climbing vendor, selling Aliens that haven't been independently tested or your comments here in this thread.

[Doug Shepherd]

In regards to the information from the initial post, the tests were performed on units which had clearly been subjected to heavy use, therefore the validity of the tests is nullified. All lab tests conducted on new units by CCH in the past several years has shown them to meet necessary safety requirements.

 

Are you serious? This is clearly a braze failure. It is a different issue from the recall cams (not enough braze in this case vs. quenching the hot joint for the recall), but even heavy abuse of the red cam would not cause this kind of failure. The middle of the cable pulled out of the head!

 

Look, I'm glad your Aliens haven't hurt/killed you or your partners. I have four that are older that I have fall tested myself, but now I'm even questioning those because of this failure mode. Just enough of the cable was brazed to let this cam survive a bounce test/small fall, but it would fail in a heavy fall.

 

In addition, the cable pull tests conducted by CCH do not cover the failure mode of the purple cam. Hopefully they will at least respond to adatesman about that failure mode...I doubt it though.

[billcoe]

I was thinking everything except the last sentence lecture on being irresponsible when I got to your post JH. Thanks for saying it for me.

 

I sent all of mine back to be tested regardless of date, and the green alien I sent in didn't come back, but another did in it's place. Furthermore and most importantly, I do not know what they did by way of testing them, it could have been tying a large violent dog on a leash anchored to an Alien and walking a cat by the dogs nose for all I know, and nothing was ever said about the single Alien replaced.

 

I am torn and still use the cams, hoping that CCH either A) Mfg'd it correctly and B) Tested it correctly.

 

Sadly, I have no solid assurance of either though.

 

PS, given the failure of stamped "tensile tested" Aliens, I'm leaning towards some kind of Rube Goldberg dog/cat testing setup....poor Frikkan cat.

 

BTW VPOVancouver, the guy who had the groundfall on Soulders Crack when he fell onto a tested Yellow Alien which then failed was also running 100% Aliens holding....until it didn't....something for you to think about. I've not broken one yet either, but it doesn't change a thing does it? Everyone forget Backcountry dogs brand new one pulling apart with a tug?

 

Round 2 (this is round 6 remember, right here)

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/547978/site_id/1#import

 

This one was particularly bad, of course, since it didn't happen to you I guess it's fine for you to keep climbing on your aliens:-)

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1585733;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC

 

Here's the pic of that "Tested" Alien that resulted in a 75 foot groundfall/near fatality.

BTW, I'll still be climbing on mine except when I'm out with some of you of course, I'll try not to fall. I will say that both my main partner and I have a full rack of Mastercams, and the Aliens are used to supplement them.

[Off_White]

Its pretty sad. I was just looking at CCH's site yesterday, wondering if they'd gotten their act together. It looked like they had, but then I realized all their info was old and in no way addressed the later failure issues. Thanks for the post Rudy.

[mkporwit]

I believe the RC.com user 'adatesman', the OP of the latest Alien thread over there, would be happy to test them for you for a small fee.

 

Thanks Joseph, I sent him an e-mail and we'll see what he comes back with.

[JosephH]

Hey, I have two sets of Alien Hybrids hanging in the basement - it blows, but I'm with Bill, even testing them with a 4mm cord loop didn't provide any particular satisfaction, comfort, or confidence given some of the braze and cable failures we've now seen (at least the axle holes aren't misaligned). I'm hoping Metolius will start producing Master Cam Offsets later this year...

 

Edit: that should have said "4mm cord loop" above instead of "2mm" - in this case I funked and bounced tested them with the cord loop in the system.

Edited May 21, 2009 by JosephH

[Alpinfox]

I'm pretty shocked that A) Aliens are in the news again for quality control issues (they haven't learned their lesson?!?!!?), and 2) some representative of a gear store is sticking his neck out in this thread making dumb statements and supporting CCH and attempting to just brush aside this recent testing? That is some poor business sense you got there dude. If I were you I'd be on the phone to CCH getting pissed off, taking my aliens off the shelf, and maybe consulting a lawyer.

 

 

I figured my pre-recall aliens were safe to use, but I'm taking them off my rack now. I'm sure I've at least weighted them all at some point, but now I'm not confident they won't blow at 4kN or something. Not worth the risk.

 

In my opinion, CCH should offer to pay for shipping for all aliens (to and from) and do pull testing to 50% rating. That is the appropriate response.

 

I also think they should also offer full money back for all aliens returned to them if people don't want to use them anymore (pull tested or not).

 

Fuck 'em. I'm done. Master Cams and C3s are as good/better anyway and that 3-Sigma testing of BDs is looking pretty comforting compared to the monkey operation that the CCH stoner crew is putting out.

 

Thanks to RuMR for the post.

[hemp22]

To clarify, we do carry Aliens and have done so for several years now.

No worries - I was just going by what I saw on your website. Never been to the store.

But, my real view on this is that it's not meant to be a statistical test to prove whether aliens are good or bad.

My take-away from this and other RC.com threads is just that alien brazing defect issues existed prior to the recall date period, and still exist after the recall date period (and that the company hasn't addressed this doesn't inspire confidence). Most of them are still perfectly fine, but the probability that you might end up with a "bad" one when buying an alien seems higher than with other manufacturers.

I know plenty of people who still swear by them, and I still occasionally climb on them - but, like AlpinFox, it was surprising to see someone posting under a name that represents a gear shop show a strong bias towards one brand of product (especially when the gear shop's website doesn't list that brand)

 

Oh, and Alpinfox - Once upon a time, Joseph stuck his neck out for CCH too. He put a lot of solid effort in, but still ended up changing his tune - and he doesn't seem like the type of guy that changes his mind on a whim...

Edited May 21, 2009 by hemp22

[Choada_Boy]

Officially off the rack. Cannot be trusted. I've been having that nagging thought in the back of my mind every time I've placed them in the past couple years. Not a good thing to have when you're on lead.

 

Fuck all y'all running CCH, you're putting lives at risk with your shitty products! Someone should sue your ass and put you out of business or rat you out to the local DA and get you shut down.

 

I challenge any Aliens supporters to provide any information regarding any other brand of cam failing in such frequent and various manners.

 

I also love the "I'm not a metallurgist but..." comments. Great to see so many non-metallurgists offering to discuss metallurgy. Speaks of a great future for applied materials science.

[Ishmael]

Wow, when you look at their failure rate to the total sample size (total production) this is not good... I have a degree in mechanical engineering and this would not be acceptable for any "life support" system/item... The failed braze at 5 kn scared me... As a father of 2, I think I am getting rid of my aliens... I guess I can say I am happy I only have one set... and not offsets so I can still replace them. Here is to the Bend company...

[hafilax]

I said it in the RC.com thread but I might as well repeat it here. It seems to me that if bad aliens are really this common and people are falling on them then the forces of the falls must be pretty low. Long falls can be pretty gentle if the fall factor is low and there is a dynamic belay.

 

I find the quality control issue to be more frustrating than frightening. A bad braze is pretty easy to spot so I'm sure a cursory inspection would pick the good from the bad pretty easily. Aliens have a number of unique features and it really is a good design. I simply would rather invest my money in a company that has better quality control and is innovative.

 

adatesman has pulled a number of other cams in similar states of disrepair and they all have come out well above the rated strength with the exception of a U stemmed Camalot.

[powderhound]

i think 5 kn's is quite a lot, its almost 1100lbs of force. I have fallen on several smaller nuts and cams that are rated to 2-4 kn and have yet to see failure.

[counterfeitfake]

i think 5 kn's is quite a lot, its almost 1100lbs of force. I have fallen on several smaller nuts and cams that are rated to 2-4 kn and have yet to see failure.

 

Please, stop with the anecdotal evidence on this topic. It shows that you don't really understand the issue at hand. "Mine haven't failed" is not AT ALL a sound or reasonable argument.

[Doug Shepherd]

5 kN is quite a bit, but not as much as you think. You can generate 5 kN by bounce testing a piece with a static runner.

 

That said, I've fallen on a lot of small gear. Some has held, some has broken, but I didn't expect any of it to hold harsh falls. Usually I'll chain up the small gear if there is that chance.

 

The problem with this is that you could bounce test or take a small fall (arbitrarily <5 kN for this example) on an Alien which is rated for say 12 kN and it won't break. Then you take a harsher fall (> 5 kN) on the piece. Maybe it will hold, maybe it won't. That just freaks the hell out of me.