prole Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 ...not tax cuts. Forgive Student Loans: Stimulate the Middle and Lower Middle Class Forgive Student Loans! ^ The American middle and lower classes are crippled under the weight of educational debt; in these unusual times, as we bail out lenders and executives, we encourage the Obama administration to forgive student loans, providing a bail-out to the people and simultaneously increasing their spending power. ^ In 2009, we enter a new age, where anything is possible. As our industries falter, we have no choice but to reconsider how we do just about everything, from governing to banking to educating our people. ^ In virtually every other advanced industrialized democracy, education, among other things, is right, rather than a privilege. Our system, like life itself, has never been fair; but in offering a level playing field for education, we create equal opportunities and increase our national intellectual capital. ^ While education cannot suddenly be offered for free, we must examine the cost of the system and the sometimes predatory lending practices that maintain it. The cost of education has outpaced earnings and potential employment. And, as we necessarily consider new possibilities and reconstruct our system, we ask that the new administration consider alleviating educational debts. ^ As our economy collapses and many find themselves suddenly unemployed, we must consider different ways to alleviate the economic pressure on the people. We are already bailing out the auto industry, the investment banks and countless executives, as well as the lenders to whom educational debts are owed. ^ The goal of forgiving student loans is to relieve pressure on the middle and lower classes and increase our spending power, to deepen our national commitment to an educated public, and to expand the equality of opportunity. In execution, this could take many forms, ranging from requiring bailed-out lenders to forgive some or all educational debt to suspending interest on educational debt to offering greater tax relief to educational debtors. ^ Recognizing or at least demanding of those elected or appointed for their expertise in this area, we ask that the Obama Administration to consider the idea of forgiving student loans. ^ For a more details, stories and data about student loans: please read: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-collegedebt27-2008dec27,1,5293672,full.column - Sarah Szalavitz (Entrepreneur), Beverly HIlls, CA Nov 24 @ 10:05AM PST Quote
ivan Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 seems like the defense budget has some room for cuts Quote
ivan Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 but if we just get rid of the national endowment for the arts that'd probably solve all our problems! Quote
STP Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 I believe the DARPA website mentions the role of the military in making changeover transitions. Energy is probably the largest area of transition for the military due to its importance. Quote
STP Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 ...not tax cuts. Forgive Student Loans: Stimulate the Middle and Lower Middle Class Forgive Student Loans! ^ The American middle and lower classes are crippled under the weight of educational debt; in these unusual times, as we bail out lenders and executives, we encourage the Obama administration to forgive student loans, providing a bail-out to the people and simultaneously increasing their spending power. ^ In 2009, we enter a new age, where anything is possible. As our industries falter, we have no choice but to reconsider how we do just about everything, from governing to banking to educating our people. ^ In virtually every other advanced industrialized democracy, education, among other things, is right, rather than a privilege. Our system, like life itself, has never been fair; but in offering a level playing field for education, we create equal opportunities and increase our national intellectual capital. ^ While education cannot suddenly be offered for free, we must examine the cost of the system and the sometimes predatory lending practices that maintain it. The cost of education has outpaced earnings and potential employment. And, as we necessarily consider new possibilities and reconstruct our system, we ask that the new administration consider alleviating educational debts. ^ As our economy collapses and many find themselves suddenly unemployed, we must consider different ways to alleviate the economic pressure on the people. We are already bailing out the auto industry, the investment banks and countless executives, as well as the lenders to whom educational debts are owed. ^ The goal of forgiving student loans is to relieve pressure on the middle and lower classes and increase our spending power, to deepen our national commitment to an educated public, and to expand the equality of opportunity. In execution, this could take many forms, ranging from requiring bailed-out lenders to forgive some or all educational debt to suspending interest on educational debt to offering greater tax relief to educational debtors. ^ Recognizing or at least demanding of those elected or appointed for their expertise in this area, we ask that the Obama Administration to consider the idea of forgiving student loans. ^ For a more details, stories and data about student loans: please read: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-collegedebt27-2008dec27,1,5293672,full.column - Sarah Szalavitz (Entrepreneur), Beverly HIlls, CA Nov 24 @ 10:05AM PST Jubilee! Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Students having trouble paying off their loans can join the military. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Those wanting an education (at least undergrad) can simply show up to classes and learn. Those wanting a “credential” should pay. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Those wanting an education (at least undergrad) can simply show up to classes and learn. Those wanting a “credential” should pay. You don't learn much in the lectures. It's what you do on your own that accounts for the bulk of "education" - reading, studying, practice. Quote
olyclimber Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 what kind of a hippy, commie, liberal idea is that? hippies that want to actually learn should have to pay, because they ask the teacher questions and stuff. hippies that just want the cred should be able to pay for it and skip the shoolin crap. Quote
Wastral Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Maybe, the lazy schmucks should work instead of racking up spring break vacation tabs in Florida etc and summer trips to wherever they wish in the world while the responsible people of this world uh hem... Work??? No, not work! You mean I have to pay this back? You mean drinking cases of Beer and partying all year long doesn't pay student loans!!! You are kidding me!!! No way, the damned fine print got me again!!! Same with all the schmucks who put themselves on ARM loans with 0 down. Try using your brains, I have no sympathy to irresponsible people. There should be no bailout of fools. Give them bread/water with some vitamin pills. Guess what its called being responsible for your own actions. While I am ranting, make CEO's etc unable to pull down more than 10X what the average worker makes even with his Bonus's. That will solve the corporate piracy going on in today's economy. If the CEO created the company like a Bill Gates then there should be no limit. But, some schmuck off the steets who is simply hired? No way. Stop the corporate CEO fraud to get their GOLDEN PARACHUTES on the backs of the workers. Try cutting your credit cards in half as well, amazing how much money you will save when you become responsible. Gotta laugh at Baraks "stimulus" package, create 3 million government jobs... wonderful. DOING WHAT????? Quite stimulating sitting in a chair in a government office. Ok, don't with my rant. Brian Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Maybe, the lazy schmucks should work instead of racking up spring break vacation tabs in Florida etc and summer trips to wherever they wish in the world while the responsible people of this world uh hem... Work??? No, not work! You mean I have to pay this back? You mean drinking cases of Beer and partying all year long doesn't pay student loans!!! You are kidding me!!! No way, the damned fine print got me again!!! Same with all the schmucks who put themselves on ARM loans with 0 down. Try using your brains, I have no sympathy to irresponsible people. There should be no bailout of fools. Give them bread/water with some vitamin pills. Guess what its called being responsible for your own actions. While I am ranting, make CEO's etc unable to pull down more than 10X what the average worker makes even with his Bonus's. That will solve the corporate piracy going on in today's economy. If the CEO created the company like a Bill Gates then there should be no limit. But, some schmuck off the steets who is simply hired? No way. Stop the corporate CEO fraud to get their GOLDEN PARACHUTES on the backs of the workers. Try cutting your credit cards in half as well, amazing how much money you will save when you become responsible. Gotta laugh at Baraks "stimulus" package, create 3 million government jobs... wonderful. DOING WHAT????? Quite stimulating sitting in a chair in a government office. Ok, don't with my rant. Brian are you suggesting that Prole doesn't work? Quote
Fairweather Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 ...not tax cuts. Forgive Student Loans: Stimulate the Middle and Lower Middle Class Forgive Student Loans! ^ The American middle and lower classes are crippled under the weight of educational debt; in these unusual times, as we bail out lenders and executives, we encourage the Obama administration to forgive student loans, providing a bail-out to the people and simultaneously increasing their spending power. ^ In 2009, we enter a new age, where anything is possible. As our industries falter, we have no choice but to reconsider how we do just about everything, from governing to banking to educating our people. ^ In virtually every other advanced industrialized democracy, education, among other things, is right, rather than a privilege. Our system, like life itself, has never been fair; but in offering a level playing field for education, we create equal opportunities and increase our national intellectual capital. ^ While education cannot suddenly be offered for free, we must examine the cost of the system and the sometimes predatory lending practices that maintain it. The cost of education has outpaced earnings and potential employment. And, as we necessarily consider new possibilities and reconstruct our system, we ask that the new administration consider alleviating educational debts. ^ As our economy collapses and many find themselves suddenly unemployed, we must consider different ways to alleviate the economic pressure on the people. We are already bailing out the auto industry, the investment banks and countless executives, as well as the lenders to whom educational debts are owed. ^ The goal of forgiving student loans is to relieve pressure on the middle and lower classes and increase our spending power, to deepen our national commitment to an educated public, and to expand the equality of opportunity. In execution, this could take many forms, ranging from requiring bailed-out lenders to forgive some or all educational debt to suspending interest on educational debt to offering greater tax relief to educational debtors. ^ Recognizing or at least demanding of those elected or appointed for their expertise in this area, we ask that the Obama Administration to consider the idea of forgiving student loans. ^ For a more details, stories and data about student loans: please read: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-collegedebt27-2008dec27,1,5293672,full.column - Sarah Szalavitz (Entrepreneur), Beverly HIlls, CA Nov 24 @ 10:05AM PST So the college grad--who now has two-to-ten times the lifetime earning potential of the high school grad--should have the balance of his already-subsidized tuition paid for, in part, by said high school grads? We've done this discussion before, Prole. Just get a job, pay back your loan, and thank the people of the state in which you studied for the huge portion of your education they generously paid to begin with. Quote
Fairweather Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 are you suggesting that Prole doesn't work? Prole says working is for the undereducated and sucka's. Under his plan, no one will work. We will all be completely free to seek our own paths to enlightenment absent the bondage The Man has put upon us. Quote
prole Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 So the college grad--who now has two-to-ten times the lifetime earning potential of the high school grad--should have the balance of his already-subsidized tuition paid for, in part, by said high school grads? We've done this discussion before, Prole. Just get a job, pay back your loan, and thank the people of the state in which you studied for the huge portion of your education they generously paid to begin with. Once again the reality that the cost of a college education is fast outstripping the ability of middle-class families' ability to afford it (even factoring in meager subsidies) is lost on you. Then again, the inability for conservatives to follow the logic of a given situation to its conclusion or think ahead is their hallmark. Should the benefits of a college education be limited to a wealthy minority? If current trends continue, that may be the case. While you may be resigned to your sad fate, I doubt that many people are going to be too stoked to be working their asses off without the hope that their kids might achieve something better. Personally, I think the benefits of quality, structured higher education should be available to anyone, regardless of their ability to pay. A functioning democracy depends on an educated populace and the joys of a well-rounded knowledge of the world is valuable in and of itself. I'm sure all this is lost on you as well. I'll make it easier for someone like you, think of it this way: who's going to employ those high-school grads, the Han Chinese? Quote
Bug Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 No stupid. The military will hire them to enforce the corporate mandates of the rich. Stop worrying so much. Its all worked out. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) So the college grad--who now has two-to-ten times the lifetime earning potential of the high school grad--should have the balance of his already-subsidized tuition paid for, in part, by said high school grads? We've done this discussion before, Prole. Just get a job, pay back your loan, and thank the people of the state in which you studied for the huge portion of your education they generously paid to begin with. Once again the reality that the cost of a college education is fast outstripping the ability of middle-class families' ability to afford it (even factoring in meager subsidies) is lost on you. Then again, the inability for conservatives to follow the logic of a given situation to its conclusion or think ahead is their hallmark. Should the benefits of a college education be limited to a wealthy minority? If current trends continue, that may be the case. While you may be resigned to your sad fate, I doubt that many people are going to be too stoked to be working their asses off without the hope that their kids might achieve something better. Personally, I think the benefits of quality, structured higher education should be available to anyone, regardless of their ability to pay. A functioning democracy depends on an educated populace and the joys of a well-rounded knowledge of the world is valuable in and of itself. I'm sure all this is lost on you as well. I'll make it easier for someone like you, think of it this way: who's going to employ those high-school grads, the Han Chinese? Don't be so hard on FW. He's just speaking from his experience. The Puyallup Academy of Hair (not that there's anything wrong with that) just didn't cost all that much. As for the military, he served in spirit, myan. Edited January 8, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote
billcoe Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Prole: per what was said above: College grads will make a shitload more scratch during their lifetimes. You went to school knowing this, made an "investment" decision and borrowed money to do so so as to reap the benefits that has historically been there for grads. Now, it appears to me, that you think you made a bad investment decision and want us, those who loaned you the money, to choke on it and forgive the loan. 2 things: 1st -the bulk of your earnings power will still be coming in the future years. You did make a good choice. You will be significantly further ahead of those who chose to go right to work and did not take the risk you did. 2nd) I just lost over quarter million bucks in a real estate "investment". Like you, I also "made an "investment" decision and borrowed money to do so so as to reap the benefits that has historically been there for" real estate investors. Now, I am asking you, should I get repaid - specifically -BY YOU? Should you, Prole give me money? Society benefited much more on my project that they ever will on you education I can assure you. If you answer yes on this, I will be in touch shortly...... BTW, I came from a dirt poor family, dirt poor like you do not have a clue about and may not have ever even seen. All of us kids went to and graduated from college, and only the first one, my older brother, borrowed a dime for it. My younger bro eventually got his masters and it was entirely funded by US (NOT THE US like as in the United States:-), via working and saving! There was no Government "loans" like you got (except my older brother), there was no family or parental money. We made that investment choice on our own. PS, bit of advice: you made the right choice and things will eventually turn out fine for you, just hang in there for a bit buddy, it can be tough right after school (I painted industrial buildings right after graduating)! It will get better, and the $ will start to flow for you - so don't despair! Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) College is far more expensive, inflation adjusted, than when I went to school. On the flip side, however, interest rates for student loans were 10%. That was then. We're in the situation we're in now, undoubtedly from a whole lot of bad behavior on all sides, but there you have it. I agree with the whole personal responsibility thing, but the least expensive and most effective thing we could do to claw our way out of the financial crisis is to allow at risk debtors to renegotiate the terms of their loans. Mortgages, other loans, credit cards. The lenders still get paid, just not as much interest and not as soon as they'd like, the debtors still have to pay, but on a schedule that will keep them from bankruptcy and/or walking away from their debt entirely, plus they take the credit score hit, which precludes them from continuing the take on more debt in the near future. Instead, the government proposes to give corporations huge tax cuts (playing favorites in the free market, and invariably putting smaller companies at an even greater competitive disadvantage than they are already) and throwing tax dollars at private industry. It's like the left hand loaning the right hand money...through a seave which catches a certain percentage of it and flushes it down the toilet. Doesn't make sense to me. I do not at all agree with any across the board loan amnesty that does not have a strong test for ability to pay. Edited January 8, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote
prole Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Prole: per what was said above: College grads will make shitload more scratch during their lifetimes. You went to school knowing this, made an "investment" decision and borrowed money to do so so as to reap the benefits that has historically been there for grads. Now, it appears to me, that you think you made a bad investment decision and want us, those who loaned you the money, to choke on it and forgive the loan. 2 things: 1st -the bulk of your earnings power will still be coming in the future years. You did make a good choice. You will be significantly further ahead of those who chose to go right to work and did not take the risk you did. 2nd) I just lost over quarter million bucks in a real estate "investment". Like you, I also "made an "investment" decision and borrowed money to do so so as to reap the benefits that has historically been there for" real estate investors. Now, I am asking you, should I get repaid - specifically -BY YOU? Should you, Prole give me money? Society benefited much more on my project that they ever will on you education I an assure you. If you answer yes on this, I will be in touch shortly...... BTW, I came from a dirt poor family, dirt poor like you do not have a clue about and may not have ever even seen. All of us kids went to and graduated from college, and only the first one, my older brother, borrowed a dime for it. My younger bro eventually got his masters and it was entirely funded by US (NOT THE US like the United States:-), via working ad saving! There was no Government "loans" like you got (except my older brother), there was no family or parental money. We made that investment choice on our own. PS, bit of advice: you made the right choice and things will eventually turn out fine for you, just hang in there for a bit buddy, it can be tough right after school (I painted industrial buildings right after graduating)! It will get better, and the $ will start to flow for you - so don't despair! Thanks Miss Cleo! [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6UTxKKhqfk Oh, and I'm sure the drywallers that did your house were thankful to you for keeping them in airplane glue for another day. Great contribution, now head on down to Walmart and save a starving child by purchasing some Bratz dolls. Oh, and no need to explain about the poverty, your baby picture you use for an avatar says it all. Quote
Fairweather Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) So the college grad--who now has two-to-ten times the lifetime earning potential of the high school grad--should have the balance of his already-subsidized tuition paid for, in part, by said high school grads? We've done this discussion before, Prole. Just get a job, pay back your loan, and thank the people of the state in which you studied for the huge portion of your education they generously paid to begin with. Once again the reality that the cost of a college education is fast outstripping the ability of middle-class families' ability to afford it (even factoring in meager subsidies) is lost on you. Then again, the inability for conservatives to follow the logic of a given situation to its conclusion or think ahead is their hallmark. Should the benefits of a college education be limited to a wealthy minority? If current trends continue, that may be the case. While you may be resigned to your sad fate, I doubt that many people are going to be too stoked to be working their asses off without the hope that their kids might achieve something better. Personally, I think the benefits of quality, structured higher education should be available to anyone, regardless of their ability to pay. A functioning democracy depends on an educated populace and the joys of a well-rounded knowledge of the world is valuable in and of itself. I'm sure all this is lost on you as well. I'll make it easier for someone like you, think of it this way: who's going to employ those high-school grads, the Han Chinese? Now you're changing the premise. Forgiveness of existing debt (presumably, yours) versus a new paradigm for incoming students. Not at all clever, boy. Two separate discussions. My wife and I put two kids (and myself) through college without borrowing a dime--scholarships and in-state tuition that remains a fantastic bargain, my sincerest appreciation to the citizens of Washington State. Your student loans probably have already-reasonable terms--pay 'em off Edited January 8, 2009 by Fairweather Quote
Wastral Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Prole: Quit being irresponsible for your own actions and those of other people. Just because the mortgage CEOs/industry are good robbers doesn't mean everyone else should have that right. Personally, I think they should all be strung up as thieves. No, you don't have to have a law for common decency. On a slightly different note. The real problem is that in today's society most jobs require a BS/BA degree. They think a certificate in "X" makes them competent. Usually, I find people who go after certificates the most incompetent people because they know they are incompetent and try to cover their incompetence by getting pieces of paper instead of applying what they know. Thus, BS degree = Bull Shit and BA = Bull Ass. A piece of paper doesn't mean a thing. True, most people who get degrees are more responsible than those who do not, but not necessarily. It doesn't mean you are smarter. Yea, Yea I own a BS mechanical engineering degree. So what? Does it mean I am an engineer? No. Means I can add and subtract and do basic equations which anyone could do in High School. Judging by the guys who graduated with me and how incompetent they are and how incompetent most of the engineers I work with are, the degree doesn't mean much. Means they can do math. Ask most engineers in school why they are there, and their answer 70% of the time is because they are "good at math" which is nice if you are a mathematician but hopeless if you are an engineer. Same in other subjects. Ask a lot of nurses why, and you will get the response, "Because I watched ER and my BIO grades in HS were good and the counselor in High School pointed me in this direction." Doesn't make them a good nurse if you have no compassion or social skills having a nursing cert eh? Its what is between your ears and applying it which counts. A piece of paper framed and hung on your wall doesn't mean a thing. I went to school to gain knowledge. Basically where to look stuff up. I could have easily learned, and HAVE to a great extent everything on my own. I sure as heck learned how to apply everything I learned in school on my own. Taught myself several subjects which I never bothered to pay to take which I have used extensively in jobs. Brian Quote
prole Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 I'm not at all surprised that this always turns into a "personal responsibility" issue, given how deeply embedded that particular set of ideas is in American thinking. What is more puzzling is why "social responsibility" seems to exist in inverse relation. "Pay your debts, but bitch, moan, and evade paying taxes." More stupid cowboy bullshit, I reckon, mixed of course with criminally mismanaged use of existing tax money for misguided ends and stagnant wages. Making education more affordable to those seeking it, those who've already got it, and those who'd like to get more could address any number of social needs and make us a better country for it. Doctors and lawyers that could make decisions influenced by their better instincts than working off their med and law school debts working for corporate goons and pharmasites, continuing educational credits for those who've already paid their debts to use learning a new skill or study something that interests them, a hundred or more dollars a month to spend on a quality GM product? Where's the downside? We develop as society when our friends, neighbors, and co-workers are smarter and we enrich our lives when we learn. We should be making it easier for people to get access to higher education and easing the burden for those those who've already gotten it, not exhuming Charlton Heston's bootstrap-pulling diatribe in order to justify the creation of a class-based educational caste system. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 PROLE: SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU WHINY LITTLE PINKO BITCH. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO NOTHING. NOW GO LICK SACK. Quote
JayB Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 This brings to mind an interesting question - who's the bigger retard: The guy or used a stated-income pay-option I/O loan to shoehorn himself into a home that he couldn't afford, or the guy who borrowed $80,000 to secure a degree in Post-Critical Studies? I vote for the latter. The home will always have a residual value determined by the rental income that it could generate. The degree, or the gazillion others like it, has no objective value whatsoever, and might even render the holder of the said degree less happy, less employable, full of baseless conceits about what he's owed by society, etc. Wastral: I'd like to see the US adopt a system of credentialing examinations for specific professions. Employers would have something more concrete than "This guy attended X college so..." to base their decisions on when assessing which young person to hire, and the smart, driven guy who busted his ass at a no-name college/community-college and knows his stuff would have an objective assessment of his skills to bring to the table. Ditto for students who can't afford to, or don't want to take all of the courses necessary to complete a degree. Quote
akhalteke Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 They already have this program. Its called the Army. 4 years and you will be debt free homey. Quote
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