To all of you ungrateful curs

[JosephH]

I'd say some of you guys haven't been following the FBI's widespread and systematic abuse in turn of each new power that it has been granted by law or administrative rule over the past six years. And that's the problem. Once the mindset is in place for the widespread of abuse of non-citizen rights, it is a very short plank and slope to applying that mindset to citizens - and that is exactly what has happened to many U.S. citizens.

 

Torture, rendition, and quitmo? It's stump simple - you can't preach freedom, human rights, and democracy while practicing the exact opposite. And you can't rally the world against evil dictators by accusing them of crimes you yourself are committing.

 

It ain't rocket science.

[JosephH]

P.S. When the founders of our nation spoke out about evils such as these they weren't laying any card-carrying, borders, or boundaries around their thinking...

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

[billcoe]

I'd say some of you guys haven't been following the FBI's widespread and systematic abuse in turn of each new power that it has been granted by law or administrative rule over the past six years. And that's the problem. Once the mindset is in place for the widespread of abuse of non-citizen rights, it is a very short plank and slope to applying that mindset to citizens - and that is exactly what has happened to many U.S. citizens.

 

Torture, rendition, and quitmo? It's stump simple - you can't preach freedom, human rights, and democracy while practicing the exact opposite. And you can't rally the world against evil dictators by accusing them of crimes you yourself are committing.

 

It ain't rocket science.

 

I only see opinion there, got links?

[mattp]

This is one area where I hope Obama takes dramatic action.

 

In doing so, he might alienate quite a few wacko's but I think he could show, at little real cost and with even less downside, that things are going to be a little different now.

[mattp]

I only see opinion there, got links?

 

Do you read the papers or watch the news at all?

[ivan]

P.S. When the founders of our nation spoke out about evils such as these they weren't laying any card-carrying, borders, or boundaries around their thinking...

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

they werent' putting boundries around that famous locke-ian platitude?

 

even for women, blacks and the poor?

 

i do agree w/ your other point though joe - we can't preach against sins we commit, even if the other bastards do them daily and we only weekly.

[JosephH]

google > fbi nsl abuse 2008

 

google > fbi fisa blanket 2008

 

google > fbi wiretap abuse 2008

 

google > fbi "patriot act" abuses 2008

 

Any of those would get anyone interested started...

[JosephH]

Ivan - I definitely wasn't accounting for culture or mores of the times...

[tvashtarkatena]

actually you did - as tvash says, treaties we ratify become federal law, as established by the consitution which you are sworn to defend - we have signed many treaties that require us to honor the human rights of hadji goatherder

 

as established by the constitution...yeh whatever. You are stretching this thing a little thin. This is an oath given to grunts; not MBA grads.

 

Less coherent as the day goes on. The oath is not 'given' to grunts, it is 'taken' by grunts. You might not have, but I took mine seriously. Still do, and I'm still working to defend the Constitution from all enemies. They've all been domestic, of late.

[akhalteke]

Oh I take my oath seriously. I don't know where you read me say that I didn't. I haven't been stateside long. Seems like you are slacking shoring up the domestic terrorists. I was doing all right till I was put out of commission. What's your excuse?

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Oh I take my oath seriously. I don't know where you read me say that I didn't. I haven't been stateside long. Seems like you are slacking shoring up the domestic terrorists. I was doing all right till I was put out of commission. What's your excuse?

 

 

BLblsblsbsblbblslbls!

 

Get sober again, then we'll talk. You can't even put together a simple thought here anymore.

[glassgowkiss]

Oh I take my oath seriously. I don't know where you read me say that I didn't. I haven't been stateside long. Seems like you are slacking shoring up the domestic terrorists. I was doing all right till I was put out of commission. What's your excuse?

 

 

one way to spin it

[Skeezix]

I get tired of all these steroid boys that come back all pumped up and naive after a tour in the army parroting all the military brainwashing. I served four years as a grunt in the infantry in the late seventies ...these young'uns need about thirty years to mellow, reflect, and let the brainwashing wear off a bit. Then we can talk.

[tvashtarkatena]

I get tired of all these steroid boys that come back all pumped up and naive after a tour in the army parroting all the military brainwashing. I served four years as a grunt in the infantry in the late seventies ...these young'uns need about thirty years to mellow, reflect, and let the brainwashing wear off a bit. Then we can talk.

 

I love it when a young tuff like AKA chestbeats with something like "What are YOU doing for your country?"...when the person on the other end served decades ago. Kids these days!

Edited November 7, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[billcoe]

I get tired of all these steroid boys that come back all pumped up and naive after a tour in the army parroting all the military brainwashing. I served four years as a grunt in the infantry in the late seventies ...these young'uns need about thirty years to mellow, reflect, and let the brainwashing wear off a bit. Then we can talk.

 

I love it when a young tuff like AKA chestbeats with something like "What are YOU doing for your country?"...when the person on the other end served decades ago. Kids these days!

 

I got out before you went in: whats to talk about?

______________________________________________________________

 

This is a Patriot act update if you want to do something other than howl on the internet (this isn't all of us but for me sometimes its just easier to yammer here:-) Thanks again JH for the reminder of how many freedoms we have and how important they ALL are. Little here....little there....pretty soon you're goose stepping down Les Champs-Elysees...which might be too egregious if you could stop and shop at the Louis Vuitton store a scant 2-3 blocks from the Arc de Triomphe there and the dollar was worth something.

 

http://www.reformthepatriotact.org/

 

"On December 31, 2009, three provisions of the Patriot Act will sunset. This is the perfect opportunity for Congress to examine all of our surveillance laws and amend those that have been found unconstitutional or have been abused to collect information on innocent people, including last year's changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and the Attorney General Guidelines (AGGs).

 

Despite the many amendments to these laws since 9/11, congress and the public have yet to receive real information about how these powerful tools are being used to collect information on Americans and how that information is being used. All of these laws work together to create a surveillance superstructure – and Congress must understand how it really works to create meaningful protections for civil liberties.

 

The ACLU's recent report, Reclaiming Patriotism, provides more information on parts of the Patriot Act that need to be amended.

 

* National Security Letters (NSLs). The FBI uses NSLs to compel internet service providers, libraries, banks, and credit reporting companies to turn over sensitive information about their customers and patrons. Using this data, the government can compile vast dossiers about innocent people. Government reports confirm that upwards of 50,000 of these secret record demands go out each year. In response to an ACLU lawsuit (Doe v. Holder), the Second Circuit Court of Appeal struck down as unconstitutional the part of the NSL law that gives the FBI the power to prohibit NSL recipients from telling anyone that the government has secretly requested customer Internet records.

* Material Support Statute. This provision criminalizes providing "material support" to terrorists, defined as providing any tangible or intangible good, service or advice to a terrorist or designated group. As amended by the Patriot Act and other laws since September 11, this section criminalizes a wide array of activities, regardless of whether they actually or intentionally further terrorist goals or organizations. Federal courts have struck portions of the statute as unconstitutional and a number of cases have been dismissed or ended in mistrial.

* FISA Amendments Act of 2008. This past summer, Congress passed a law to permit the government to conduct warrantless and suspicion-less dragnet collection of U.S. residents' international telephone calls and e-mails. This too must be amended to provide meaningful privacy protections and judicial oversight of the government's intrusive surveillance power. "

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Air Force = gay summer camp

[billcoe]

Air Force = gay summer camp

 

We finally agree on something. The few times I ever wound up on an US Airbase in foreign soil, they were eating unlimited shrimp F*uking cocktails and drinking champagne for lunch while the 2-4 times we ever had beef meat it was venison...no shit.

 

I'm thinking, "how stupid am I for not being part of this circus." Naturally I've advised my son that the air force is the only way to go. Go gay: go smart. Air force gets all the goodies.

[tvashtarkatena]

Hey, I've got nothing against the Gay'r Force. I flew space A on a C5 to England and back, then on to Cali in a C141 for $1.65 (lunch). Service was great, although the 'stewardess' was about 6'2" and 220. On time, too...given that I had no clue what the schedule was supposed to be. No window seat, but hey, you get what you pay for.

[pink]

another hoho lover...

[tvashtarkatena]

Zappa lover, too. Bring 'im back, airman.

[billcoe]

google > fbi nsl abuse 2008

 

google > fbi fisa blanket 2008

 

google > fbi wiretap abuse 2008

 

google > fbi "patriot act" abuses 2008

 

Any of those would get anyone interested started...

 

I forgot to thank you for this btw.

 

Thanks!

____________________________________________________________

 

I was looking for the link on waterbording. But I can eat crow here as well as there.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_security_interrogations

 

" 10 mins ago

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – CIA interrogators used the waterboarding technique on Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the admitted planner of the September 11 attacks, 183 times and 83 times on another al Qaeda suspect, The New York Times said on Sunday.............."

 

Damn, that's like "Good morning Sheik, how about your morning hair wash today".....