Positives of Bush

[mkporwit]

He made it possible for us to elect a black man to the presidency. Had Bush been less of a polarizing figure, less of a disaster, I'm not sure that Obama's message of change and hope would have resonated so strongly.

 

The one thing that wasn't mentioned yet that he deserves credit for is making an honest, legitimate attempt at trying to solve the illegal immigration issue. He didn't make much headway... Didn't get anywhere, but it wasn't for his lack of trying.

 

in the bush

[STP]

The Democratic Party needs effective opposition from the left! Most of their "bullshit" over the last 30 years has stemmed from their complete lack of courage, conviction, and program in the face of the conservative "revolution" rather than any "abuses of power" that need balance from the right-wing. Looking around at the scorched earth the GOP has left the Dems to govern, I wouldn't say that now's the time for consensus-building with the Reich that's just had its ass handed to them. The GOP has done quite well in governing as if it's had a mandate, it's time for the Dems to sack up and govern when they really do. It's about "change" remember? Grow a pair.

 

The rise of neo-fascism in Italy, and elsewhere, is tied to the collapse -- or rather the surrender -- of center-left parties to the pernicious doctrines of the Right. Everywhere, these parties --- Democrats in America, Labour in the UK, various Social Democrats throughout Europe – have turned themselves into pale copies of conservative parties, adopting policies that have degraded society, destroyed communities, entrenched injustice, rewarded greed, poisoned the earth, embraced militarism and aggression, inflicted vast suffering on developing nations (through the straightjacket of "market reforms," i.e., corporate-crony welfare), subverted democracy, diminished liberty and gutted the very notion of the common good.

-- Duce Bags: Italy Leads Fascist Revanche in Western Democracies

 

Also: Blinded by the Story: Liberals and Progressives as Political Creationists

[kevbone]

1) Increasing aid to Africa

 

2) Preventing wars in India/Pakistan

 

3) Dealing with N. Korea/ Libya re: Nuclear programs

 

4) Taking out many of Al Queda's top leadership and driving them underground.

 

5) Reduced Farm subsidies.

 

6) Ousted Saddam, a tyranical dictator.

 

7) No attacks since 9/11/01

 

 

 

 

However the good……the bad still outweighs the good.

 

Illegal wiretapping. Torture, lying. Ousting a CIA operative. Voter suppression. Dictatorship. Make the USA very unpopular in the world. Brainwashing people like you, fraud. Sending innocent military personal to there death solely to make his rich friends richer. Occupying a country that did not attack us based on lies. Trying his hardest to bring fascism to this country.

 

I would say he needs to be held accountable for his actions. I hope Obama will appoint an aggressive AG to look into Bush and his cronies. NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW…..especially the highest “elected” official.

 

[dougd]

You know the republican party is in deep shit when pat buchanan is the conservative voice of reason...

 

d

[mattp]

The Democratic Party needs effective opposition from the left! Most of their "bullshit" over the last 30 years has stemmed from their complete lack of courage, conviction, and program in the face of the conservative "revolution" rather than any "abuses of power" that need balance from the right-wing. Looking around at the scorched earth the GOP has left the Dems to govern, I wouldn't say that now's the time for consensus-building with the Reich that's just had its ass handed to them. The GOP has done quite well in governing as if it's had a mandate, it's time for the Dems to sack up and govern when they really do. It's about "change" remember? Grow a pair.

 

I agree with you 100% here, Prole, but at the same time I would add that I hope the Democrats don't overreach. It'd be great if they could enact national healthcare, cut back our military operations around the world, put Bush and his buddies in jail, and do all those other great things we'd like to see but if they try to go too far in this direction all at once I think we'd see them voted out of Congress in two years and out of the White House in four.

 

Just as much as the Republicans, the Democrats need to redefine themselves. I hope they have in Obama a leader who will help with this and I hope that they'll grow a bit more confident with their rising political fortunes but more than take a big leap to the left I'd like to see them refine their platform and start acting like leaders instead of hiding from their responsibility. If they can pick a couple of things like healthcare and diplomacy where they can really make a difference, develop a clear sense of priorities and a positive message, and maybe keep us out of major recession I'll be pretty happy.

[No. 13 Baby]

Charlie Rangel put it best when he said W, "finally put to rest the myth of white superiority."

[tvashtarkatena]

Top four priorities as I see them:

 

1) Get out of Iraq and eliminate that massive financial liability

 

2) Enact Obama's health care plan

 

3) Enact Obama's tax plan

 

4) (longer term) achieve sustainable energy independence

 

I think these four actions will do more to stabilize the economy than all the bailout, stimulus, and whatever other kind of packages are politically fashionable these days.

 

In reality, I think the rich will be taxed more, but the rest of us won't see a tax cut. The deficit's way too large.

 

I do see a relatively rapid withdrawal from Iraq in our future out of sheer financial necessity.

 

Health care will probably take at least 2 years or more, but it will happen, again, out of sheer necessity.

 

Sustainable energy independence or something close to it could be had today through conservation measures. I hope the Obama administration focuses on using existing technologies and proven government regulation and incentives to decrease usage rather than throwing a bunch of money into a matter/anti=matter reactor or something. Energy conservation in America is a joke. No one's really done shit, yet. My little household experiment, begun in 2001, has proven that a 60% decrease in energy usage can be got in a 1911 home with very little investment in mature technologies and no real inconvenience. Savings much greater than that are achievable with appropriately designed new construction.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Shrill rhetoric aside, I don't think the situation in Afghanistan/Pakistan matters much in any real sense. I'd like to see success in Afghanistan, but it's a 'nice to have', not a 'must have'.

[Fairweather]

The Democratic Party needs effective opposition from the left! Most of their "bullshit" over the last 30 years has stemmed from their complete lack of courage, conviction, and program in the face of the conservative "revolution" rather than any "abuses of power" that need balance from the right-wing. Looking around at the scorched earth the GOP has left the Dems to govern, I wouldn't say that now's the time for consensus-building with the Reich that's just had its ass handed to them. The GOP has done quite well in governing as if it's had a mandate, it's time for the Dems to sack up and govern when they really do. It's about "change" remember? Grow a pair.

 

You should analyze this a little more. Take a look at California, a state that went heavily for Obama...but who's citizens also voted for proposition 8 which (re)banned gay marriage. If such a measure were put on the ballot here I wouldn't even vote for it. Are you really sure that this country is as far left as you would like it to be? I think it still hovers slightly right of the middle. JMO. Matt is correct in this case, but I don't think the Dems in congress are willing to go as slow as the more pragmatic Obama would like and they'll likely drag him off the cliff in 2010 and 2012. We'll see. At this point I don't really care too much. The people have spoken.

[Bug]

I care.

You should too.

Just like I did the last eight years.

It's the opposition party that usually finds the mistakes.

 

FW, you need to grow a pair.JMO.

[billcoe]

I think FW nailed that one. Lots of people I know voted for Obama because they hated what they had with Bush and knew they needed a change. Many of them don't really even know, or care, what those policy's will be. They just know they didn't like what they had. If Obama takes a hard left turn, he'll be out on his own, and out on his ass in 4 years. If he follows T's priority list above, I think as Americans, all of us will recognize the good he has done for our country and we'll have 8 good years ob Barak.

 

 

BTW, this is funny as hell and you all missed it! Thanks for the laugh 13.

 

Charlie Rangel put it best when he said W, "finally put to rest the myth of white superiority."

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I wouldn't use Prop 8 as too much of a bellweather. It had a very narrow margin, and it will likely be overturned by the CA supreme court as unconstitutional on equal protection grounds. The sheer number of already gay married couples in CA will likely make it an amendment with a very short half life.

 

Also, one's attitude on gay marriage does not constitute, in any way, an overarching measure of conservatism.

 

To say that 'most people are in the middle' is a self evident non-statement. Most people are 'in the middle' in any population, regardless of whether you measure their height, attitudes on pitbulls, second toe lengths, income, or number of alien abductions. There is no 'absolute political middle' to measure against.

[Bug]

BO rocks.

 

The joke is so last administration.

[Bug]

Its just like my middle.

Formless and ever expanding and contracting.

[tvashtarkatena]

I think FW nailed that one. Lots of people I know voted for Obama because they hated what they had with Bush and knew they needed a change. Many of them don't really even know, or care, what those policy's will be. They just know they didn't like what they had. If Obama takes a hard left turn, he'll be out on his own, and out on his ass in 4 years. If he follows T's priority list above, I think as Americans, all of us will recognize the good he has done for our country and we'll have 8 good years ob Barak.

 

 

BTW, this is funny as hell and you all missed it! Thanks for the laugh 13.

 

Charlie Rangel put it best when he said W, "finally put to rest the myth of white superiority."

 

 

Um...Bill, my 4 point agenda IS pretty much a hard left turn. The country just told Obama to make a hard left. If he doesn't that's where he'll meet with trouble.

Edited November 6, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[JosephH]

1) Increasing aid to Africa

 

2) Preventing wars in India/Pakistan

 

3) Dealing with N. Korea/ Libya re: Nuclear programs

 

4) Taking out many of Al Queda's top leadership and driving them underground.

 

5) Reduced Farm subsidies.

 

6) Ousted Saddam, a tyranical dictator.

 

7) No attacks since 9/11/01

 

 

Only #1 and the latter half of #3 are a) true, b) attributable to Bush and c) positives. And the latter of these driven entirely by and for the interests of friends of Cheney's in the oil industry.

[billcoe]

 

Um...Bill, my 4 point agenda IS pretty much a hard left turn. The country just told Obama to make a hard left. If he doesn't that's where he'll meet with trouble.

 

Arguably the 4th point is the more critically important. Looking at that now, everyone is on board with the idea of development of a cohesive comprehensive forward looking energy policy. However, where things may fall down is in the execution. For instance, we get 49 percent of our electricity generated by coal currently. A bad thing by all accounts but it's not imported oil. Barak has spoken that he supports tax and cap to the extent it will shut down the Coal industry. If he does that fait accompli, and electrical prices rose in the ensuing vacuum, then the gov't would step forward to support poor folks and the middle class and business's would be both taxed to pay for it AND be paying higher prices..... this will have left a lot of folks behind somewhere, and not on the boat which is sailing away into a not so rosy future....

 

Details details details. It looks like he will at least have smart folks working with him, which will help ease some of the potential issues and horror stories by identifying them well in advance so they can be dealt with.

 

It's all in the details. I an crossing my fingers and wishing my county and my countrymen, even you, well.

[Bug]

Barak has spoken that he supports tax and cap to the extent it will shut down the Coal industry. If he does that fait accompli, and electrical prices rose in the ensuing vacuum, then the gov't would step forward to support poor folks and the middle class and business's would be both taxed to pay for it AND be paying higher prices..... this will have left a lot of folks behind somewhere, and not on the boat which is sailing away into a not so rosy future....

 

You have a pretty selective memory on that one Eeyor. You left out the part that uses the incremental tax to pay for developing alternative energy sources.

Why do Republicans eliminate that possibility? Is it because it does not shore up the biggest corporations - oil?

[akhalteke]

Shrill rhetoric aside, I don't think the situation in Afghanistan/Pakistan matters much in any real sense. I'd like to see success in Afghanistan, but it's a 'nice to have', not a 'must have'.

 

Are you kidding me? The major kingpins of a major terrorist group hell-bent on our destruction lie on that border and you think it would just be nice to win? The only thing keeping those men from terrorizing the US is the men keeping them in holes in Afghanistan.

[akhalteke]

1) Increasing aid to Africa

 

2) Preventing wars in India/Pakistan

 

3) Dealing with N. Korea/ Libya re: Nuclear programs

 

4) Taking out many of Al Queda's top leadership and driving them underground.

 

5) Reduced Farm subsidies.

 

6) Ousted Saddam, a tyranical dictator.

 

7) No attacks since 9/11/01

 

 

Only #1 and the latter half of #3 are a) true, b) attributable to Bush and c) positives. And the latter of these driven entirely by and for the interests of friends of Cheney's in the oil industry.

 

Whatever you think the motivations are, they are positive for our country and in some instances those outside this country.

[pc313]

Bush,we all will miss him,LOL

[prole]

The only thing keeping those men from terrorizing the US is the men keeping them in holes in Afghanistan.

 

"If you were staked out in your foxhole and you knew that the enemy knew the location of your hole, would you use your hole as bait?"

[billcoe]

Shrill rhetoric aside, I don't think the situation in Afghanistan/Pakistan matters much in any real sense. I'd like to see success in Afghanistan, but it's a 'nice to have', not a 'must have'.

 

Are you kidding me? The major kingpins of a major terrorist group hell-bent on our destruction lie on that border and you think it would just be nice to win? The only thing keeping those men from terrorizing the US is the men keeping them in holes in Afghanistan.

 

Exactly. This thing has now moved into Western Pakistan/Waziristan in a big way. As many of the Pakistani intelligence forces have been sympathetic to the Taliban, and Pakistan is sitting on @ 50 nuclear warheads.....anyone can get that point if that goes real bad eh? It is perhaps a result of poor execution of US foreign policy there: ie, our support of a military dictator in a country which prizes democracy, for instance, but it exists in real time and won't go away easily non-the-less and is not something Obama can disregard with an off the cuff remark without paying a big price later.

[akhalteke]

The only thing keeping those men from terrorizing the US is the men keeping them in holes in Afghanistan.

 

"If you were staked out in your foxhole and you knew that the enemy knew the location of your hole, would you use your hole as bait?"

 

No, I would call in a JDAM on them. Silly liberals.

[prole]

Kinky.