The Debate

[Skeezix]

maverick... maverick... maverick... maverick...

 

Did I mention that he's a maverick? Well he is. A maverick, that is.

[TREETOAD]

In the end, the debate did not change the essential truth of Ms. Palin's candidacy: Mr. McCain made a wildly irresponsible choice that shattered the image he created for himself as the honest, seasoned, experienced man of principle and judgment," The New York Times wrote.

 

 

"It was either an act of incredible cynicism or appallingly bad judgment."

 

 

A slew of polls have put Obama firmly ahead both nationally and in key swing states such as Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania ahead of the polls.

 

 

And they have suggested that voters blame Republicans for the country's economic woes and trust Obama more with fixing the downturn.

 

 

New figures showed the sputtering economy lost 159,000 jobs in September as the weight of the housing collapse and credit crunch hit a broad swath of industries.

 

 

Biden, who also did better than expected in the debate, reining in his natural tendancy to be too long-winded, had sparred with Palin over the Iraq, the economy, health care and even the role of the vice president.

 

 

"Surviving 90 minutes on a stage with Biden did not transform Palin into a plausible president," wrote E.J. Dionne in the Washington Post.

 

 

"Say what you will about Joe Biden -- and last night, he was far from being either the gaffe machine or the windbag so many predicted would appear on stage -- no one loses sleep at the idea of his being in the Oval Office."

 

 

[ashw_justin]

Palins are clearly coached and parroted, and drawn from a worn out playbook that the American people have clearly grown tired of.

Well maybe I am guilty of mis-estimating the interests of the voting public, but I think the last eight years painfully proved just how susceptible "we" are to this kind propaganda. Am I wrong or is the American Public just begging to eat this sh*t up?

 

I'm willing to give credit where credit is due; Palin didn't fuck up like everyone thought she would, but that's about as far as it goes here.

Definitely. The only problem is, the media frenzy led everyone to expect her to fail, which then ironically works to her favor when she doesn't. Now everyone is thinking "wow, she actually sounded a lot smarter than I expected" (given her media portrayal up to this point). Another Big Whoops.

 

To compare her to the founder of the party of Reagan, however, is complete fantasy. Rachel Ray would be a better comparison, but then, Rachel Ray isn't running for 2nd in command.

Actually I am way too young to know about/remember Reagan's campaigns, and my comparison is highly superficial. However, the comparison I am making concerns the ability to make love to the camera--a highly superficial, but extremely desirable trait for getting elected.

 

To be fair, Obama's not too camera-shy either.

[tvashtarkatena]

Back to the Reagan comparison, Reagan also capitalized on voter dissatisfaction in the wake of economic (oil shocks) and security (Iranian revolution) crisis that were mismanaged by what was perceived at the time as an inept, weak Democratic administration. Reagan also rode the reactionary wave of anti-defeatism in the wake of Vietnam.

 

In contrast, we are in the throes of an economic crisis that is clearly of Republican making. Palin is preaching for deregulation even as the country implodes because of the same. We are also currently losing two wars, and tired of those conflicts which done so much to gut our economy through massive debt spending, not craving for a new chance to prove our military might, as we (some of the country, at least) were in the early 80s.

 

Finally, it's useful to note that Reagan wore out his welcome; he was one of the most unpopular presidents in history when he left office.

 

No, Palin is no Reagan. Times have changed. She is simply the media play thing de jour.

[glassgowkiss]

palin is a populist puke, another tax spending conservative and religious fanatic. end of this story. she might have her appeal with white trash crowd from kentucky. i don't need anybody telling me what to think.

[ashw_justin]

Oh yeah I forgot, it's about The Issues...

Too bad opinions are like assholes, and that most of the American People (including myself... and, yes, the candidates) honestly don't know exactly how to solve everyone's problems, despite often pretending to. So we guess. Face it. In the end I think I'll vote for the person who least pretends to be infallible (contingent on the whole not starting any more unnecessary wars thing I mean).

Edited October 3, 2008 by ashw_justin

[tvashtarkatena]

Palins are clearly coached and parroted, and drawn from a worn out playbook that the American people have clearly grown tired of.

Well maybe I am guilty of mis-estimating the interests of the voting public, but I think the last eight years painfully proved just how susceptible "we" are to this kind propaganda. Am I wrong or is the American Public just begging to eat this sh*t up?

 

I'm willing to give credit where credit is due; Palin didn't fuck up like everyone thought she would, but that's about as far as it goes here.

Definitely. The only problem is, the media frenzy led everyone to expect her to fail, which then ironically works to her favor when she doesn't. Now everyone is thinking "wow, she actually sounded a lot smarter than I expected" (given her media portrayal up to this point). Another big Whoops.

 

To compare her to the founder of the party of Reagan, however, is complete fantasy. Rachel Ray would be a better comparison, but then, Rachel Ray isn't running for 2nd in command.

Actually I am way too young to know about/remember Reagan's campaigns, and my comparison is highly superficial. However, the comparison I am making concerns the ability to make love to the camera--a highly superficial, but extremely desirable trait for getting elected.

 

To be fair, Obamas not too camera-shy either.

 

Sounding a lot smarter than people expected is hardly a vote of confidence, and hardly unexpected. I mean, she couldn't have given a worse performance than in her previous interviews.

 

What she did not do was to sound genuine. She was also far from gracious. Biden was both. He beat her at her own game. That's what happens when you hire a pro, I guess. As for making love to the camera, all four players in this campaign are experienced at that, and they're all good at it in their own ways. There are a lot of ways to do it, but in politics, coming across as genuine is of supreme importance. Palin seems incapable of it.

 

As for how stupid the American public is, well, I'd like to think that the past 8 years have taught the dumber half of us something, but that remains to be seen.

Edited October 3, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Oh yeah I forgot, it's about The Issues...

Too bad opinions are like assholes, and that most of the American People (including myself... and, yes, the candidates) honestly don't know exactly how to solve everyone's problems, despite often pretending to. So we guess. Face it. In the end I think I'll vote for the person who least pretends to be infallible.

 

A bit of a cynical viewpoint, but understandable, considering where we are right now. Actually, though, a lot of solutions to macro problems ARE known. For example, it's probably not a good idea to completely deregulate Wall Street and expect that bad things aren't going to happen. It's probably not a good idea to 'heat up' the economy beyond a sustainable growth rate and not expect a crash. It's not a good idea to rape the environment. It's not a good idea to keep spending while the debt is ballooning to stratispheric heights. It's not a good idea to invade a country that is not a credible threat to national security.

 

In short, it's not a good idea to vote Republican.

 

This stuff is no mystery; it's not even that complicated.

[dmuja]

 

Not to be too pessimistic and this might be for another thread but..has anyone else considered..

 

~ that the US is now "weakened" militarily being occupied by two wars

 

~ that the US is now weakened economically being in the midst of an apparent economic collapse

 

(both goals of OBL btw)

 

~ that should another 911 type thing occur, we might very well start a world war in response while in a weakened condition and thus possibly "LOSE" such a war?

 

Might it be that Bush in his ineptness will go down in history as the president who destroyed the United States?

 

The consequences of putting an idiot in the white house perhaps?

[ashw_justin]

My biggest fear is the idea of John McCain in control of our armed forces and nuclear arsenal. Then again, that may also be our "peaceful adversaries'" biggest fear, potentially working in our diplomatic favor. How's that for cynicism.

 

But I'm afraid it's just not worth it. Something unsettling about the idea of a "maverick" president with his hand on the button...

 

Anyway, rest assured that if/when the bombs start dropping, we can have an honest down-home mother holding our hands, soothing our hearts, and charmingly telling us we don't got to worry because God shines on us Americans and welcomes [most] of us into Heaven.

 

BTW here's a picture of a "maverick" missile for the warmongers' spank bank ::

 

[olyclimber]

HOW IS THE PALIN TRUTH SQUAD DOING THIS WONDERFUL WET FRIDAY??????!

[rob]

I'm voting for the Palin/McCain ticket because I'm ready for a change!

 

They're the ORIGINAL MAVERICKS! THEY'RE GOING TO WASHINGTON TO SHAKE THINGS UP!

 

 

[olyclimber]

JUST OVER AT HUFF POST. SAW THAT THE PALIN THAT WAS TALKING TO COURIC WAS A LITTLE BIT ANNOYED!

 

HUFF POST ISN'T MSM, SO ITS GOOD STUFF.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/03/palin-on-fox-news-couric_n_131655.html

[olyclimber]

GOTCHA!

[tvashtarkatena]

It's a good thing we're not still in Vietnam fighting CHARLIE. I don't think I'd ever turn a TV or radio on ever again.

[joblo7]

I'm voting for the Palin/McCain ticket because I'm ready for a change!

 

They're the ORIGINAL MAVERICKS! THEY'RE GOING TO WASHINGTON TO SHAKE THINGS UP!

 

 

 

 

 

[tomtom]

In contrast, we are in the throes of an economic crisis that is clearly of Republican making.

 

Or not.

[tvashtarkatena]

No street cred, no clicky.

[tvashtarkatena]

So, I was thinking. I've never, EVER, heard a McCain supporter explain why his proposed programs would be better for America. Oh sure, I've heard that Obama's inexperienced, that McCain has more balls, blah, blah, but why would McCain's policies be better for the country.

 

Any Obama supporter can answer this question in a few seconds on the spot:

 

Get out of Iraq, focus on Afghanistan.

 

Develop clean energy.

 

Health care for all.

 

Being my top three, although there are more.

 

Why aren't McCain supporters able to do the same?

[TREETOAD]

I can hear the crickets again

[mattp]

You can go ahead and click it, Tvash. It won't hurt you to read his link and discuss it.

 

Factcheck is going out of its way to be fair and balanced there, saying that many Democrats voted for the 1999 legislation and Bubba signed it, while McCain's claim that he tried to regulate Fannie and Freddie and this would have avoided the crisis is misleading, but in my view they fall short of really making the point that they are trying to make: that the Dems' blame of the Repubs is just as misleading as is the Repus' blame of the Dems.

 

In conclusions, Factcheck says the real blame for our woes lies with everybody from dog catcher to president - something that is hard to argue with - but all of this tends to obscure the fact that de-regulation and get the government out of the way HAVE been Republican mantras for 30 years and now all of the sudden even John McCain is going to "reform" Wall Street and impose regulations or some kind of sensible controls.

 

Yes, Clinton moved to make credit more attainable for minorities but, and this is something I'd be interested to learn but so far I've heard just as many people saying it is moderately wealthy people in McMansions who are foreclosing and causing all the trouble -- not the poor people. And, you may argue that any potential regulations or that which was repealed 8 years ago wouldn't have helped, or that imposing them now will make things worse, but most commentators are saying that there WAS a real failure of oversight and that HAD the Congress and the Executive Branch exercised its responsibility we would not be in this mess. Admittedly, the Democrats went along with legislation like the 1999 repeal of part of Glass-Steagal and you can trot out some quote where Barney Frank said the housing bubble was overblown, but the overall trend toward de-regulation and lack of any regulatory response to what clearly WAS at least worrisome was driven more by the Republican agenda.

[mike1]

Biden came across like a used car salesmen to me. It looked like a lot of bad acting promising change. We hear that every election. Don’t promise me change without a plan and don’t make up a plan without advise from your cabinet. I don’t want to hear about a plan for ending a war before they sit down with all the players. Palin did better than expected, but that doesn’t mean anything when everyone expected a train wreck. Both of these candidates leave a lot to be desired. I want to see a debate between the candidates entire cabinet potentials. That's where your policies and decisions are mostly made. The President and VP are just targets for rotten vegetables when shit goes bad... Take a look at their friends... that’s who they will likely pull into their folds to build their cabinet. So who’s got the most corrupt pack of friends?

 

[glassgowkiss]

matt, it's hard to disagree with your post. however the process started in 1999 went way further along in 2001 and 2003 with subsequent deregulations. and we all know who was in control of both branches! and the whole issue of "housing bubble" is just another case of "trickle down economics" on acid trip this time. it is hard to argue that helping lower class purchase properties was a good thing- if it was done right. ownership replaces "i don't give a fuck" mentality with a premiss of responsibility. but then everyone decided to jump on band wagon of real estate boom and the crazy train of "circus economy" started to roll. nothing was real, everything looked really good, but only on the paper.

the whole bailout is just another disaster in the making costing you and i at the end $2300. but pointing out these facts is un-American, according to gullible idiots like FW or KK.

[glassgowkiss]

Biden came across like a used car salesmen to me. It looked like a lot of bad acting promising change. We hear that every election. Don’t promise me change without a plan and don’t make up a plan without advise from your cabinet. I don’t want to hear about a plan for ending a war before they sit down with all the players. Palin did better than expected, but that doesn’t mean anything when everyone expected a train wreck. Both of these candidates leave a lot to be desired. I want to see a debate between the candidates entire cabinet potentials. That's where your policies and decisions are mostly made. The President and VP are just targets for rotten vegetables when shit goes bad... Take a look at their friends... that’s who they will likely pull into their folds to build their cabinet. So who’s got the most corrupt pack of friends?

 

palin was repeating slogans like a well trained parrot. she wasn't even answering the questions more then 50% of the time, she was too busy ranting and raving and chest beating about her political "accomplishments".

to answer your last question stevens might get off on technicality.

[tvashtarkatena]

- but all of this tends to obscure the fact that de-regulation and get the government out of the way HAVE been Republican mantras for 30 years and now all of the sudden even John McCain is going to "reform" Wall Street and impose regulations or some kind of sensible controls.

 

I've seen the Republicans enact their deregulation agenda since Reagan. I don't need to click on any fucking link to inform me what the result of that has been, thanks.

 

Clinton asked banks to offer mortgage to lower income folks during a time of budget surplus and a healthy economy in an effort to spread the American dream to those left behind. It was an admirable, fair, and appropriate move during a time of plenty.

 

Then Bush came along and completely fucked it all up.

 

The Republican agenda; MASSIVE, debt financed military spending and wars, wink-wink deregulation of Wall Street, fucking the environment for short term profits, tax cuts for the rich; I don't need a lecture by anyone as to how we got where we are today. I've watched this predictable train wreck unfold every step of the way.