gertlush Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Some further developments: Linkage One month ago, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice of the United States arrived in Tbilisi, Georgia, for a high-profile visit that was planned to accomplish two very different goals. During a private dinner on July 9, Rice's aides say, she warned President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia not to get into a military conflict with Russia that Georgia could not win. "She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use-of-force pledge on the table," according to a senior administration official who accompanied Rice to the Georgian capital. But publicly, Rice struck a different tone, one of defiant support for Georgia in the face of Russian pressure. "I'm going to visit a friend and I don't expect much comment about the United States going to visit a friend," she told reporters just before arriving in Tbilisi, even as Russian jets were conducting intimidating maneuvers over South Ossetia. In the six days since the simmering conflict between Russia and Georgia erupted into war, Bush administration officials have been adamant in asserting that they warned the government in Tbilisi not to let Moscow provoke it into a fight - and that they were surprised when their advice went unheeded. Right up until the hours before Georgia launched its attack late last week in South Ossetia, Washington's top envoy for the region, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried, and other administration officials were warning the Georgians not to allow the conflict to escalate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canyondweller Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Invaded = Need to fight back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZimZam Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 This is only the tip of the iceberg. Next will be China sending troops to Sudan to protect their interests. Stay tuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share Posted August 13, 2008 This is only the tip of the iceberg. Next will be China sending troops to Sudan to protect their interests. Stay tuned. It s about time! Those people...Oh. You mean the oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Media Bias Part XXXXXXII What's bias about an opinion piece on an on-line version of the LA Times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Interesting tidbits on McCain's foreign policy advisor: ____In 2005, while registered as a paid lobbyist for Georgia, Scheunemann worked with McCain to draft a congressional resolution pushing for Georgia's membership in NATO. A year later, while still on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann accompanied McCain on a trip to that country, where they met with Saakashvili and supported his bellicose views toward Russia's Vladimir Putin. Scheunemann is at the center of the neoconservative cabal that has come to dominate the Republican candidate's foreign policy stance in a replay of the run-up to the war against Iraq. These folks are always looking for a foreign enemy on which to base a new Cold War, and with the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime it was Putin's Russia that came increasingly to fit the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fear_and_greed Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I agree, but Georgia gave them an excuse and they (Putin) ran with it. You want to talk realpolitik zim zam? Definition. It is clear that you cannot give Putin and inch politically. He will take a kilometer for every one you give him. I would like to see some military presence in Georgia from the west. Nothing offensive, but a large peacekeeping force of marines and rangers that are ordered to put-down any hostilities witnessed. This would be the ideal solution (at least temporarily). Since Russia doesn't want to honor their obligations under a cease fire, we can help them do that. I don't doubt that trigger happy jar heads can't wait to get some action in with a real enemy. Go git them commie bastards, boy! Since you dispatched those towel heads in Iraqistan with such ease, god-less pinkos should be a pushover. Quick , get Rummy back in the Pentagon to formulate the war plan. Semper fi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Media Bias Part XXXXXXII What's bias about an opinion piece on an on-line version of the LA Times? PP is eloquently making a case against the Free Market Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share Posted August 13, 2008 I agree, but Georgia gave them an excuse and they (Putin) ran with it. You want to talk realpolitik zim zam? Definition. It is clear that you cannot give Putin and inch politically. He will take a kilometer for every one you give him. I would like to see some military presence in Georgia from the west. Nothing offensive, but a large peacekeeping force of marines and rangers that are ordered to put-down any hostilities witnessed. This would be the ideal solution (at least temporarily). Since Russia doesn't want to honor their obligations under a cease fire, we can help them do that. I don't doubt that trigger happy jar heads can't wait to get some action in with a real enemy. Go git them commie bastards, boy! Since you dispatched those towel heads in Iraqistan with such ease, god-less pinkos should be a pushover. Quick , get Rummy back in the Pentagon to formulate the war plan. Semper fi. You seem like a violent person. I suggest a peace keeping mission and all you can think about is killing commies. Perhaps you should go back to playing counter strike and have your mummy bring you another hotpocket and mountain dew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I agree, but Georgia gave them an excuse and they (Putin) ran with it. You want to talk realpolitik zim zam? Definition. It is clear that you cannot give Putin and inch politically. He will take a kilometer for every one you give him. I would like to see some military presence in Georgia from the west. Nothing offensive, but a large peacekeeping force of marines and rangers that are ordered to put-down any hostilities witnessed. This would be the ideal solution (at least temporarily). Since Russia doesn't want to honor their obligations under a cease fire, we can help them do that. I don't doubt that trigger happy jar heads can't wait to get some action in with a real enemy. Go git them commie bastards, boy! Since you dispatched those towel heads in Iraqistan with such ease, god-less pinkos should be a pushover. Quick , get Rummy back in the Pentagon to formulate the war plan. Semper fi. You seem like a violent person. I suggest a peace keeping mission and all you can think about is killing commies. Perhaps you should go back to playing counter strike and have your mummy bring you another hotpocket and mountain dew. Canadians = Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gertlush Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Unfortunately I think Team America is pretty much hooped...oh well you've probably got your hands full already. The trap was set in Georgia. When President Saakashvili blundered into South Ossetia, sending in an army to shell, kill and maim on a vicious scale (against US advice and his promised word), Russia was waiting. It was not only Mr Saakashvili who thought that he had the distraction of the Olympics to cover him; the Kremlin also knew that Mr Bush was watching basketball, and, in the longer term, that the US army was fully engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the day that the Russian tank brigade raced through the tunnel into South Ossetia, Russia has not made one wrong move. Mr Bush's remarks yesterday notwithstanding, In five days it turned an overreaching blunder by a Western-backed opponent into a devastating exposure of Western impotence, dithering and double standards on respecting national sovereignty (viz Iraq). The attack was short, sharp and deadly - enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic, their rout captured by global television. The destruction was enough to hurt, but not so much that the world would be roused in fury. The timing of the ceasefire was precise: just hours before President Sarkozy could voice Western anger. Moscow made clear that it retained the initiative. And despite sporadic breaches - on both sides - Russia has blunted Georgian charges that this is a war of annihilation. Moscow can also counter Georgian PR, the last weapon left to Tbilisi. Human rights? Look at what Georgia has done in South Ossetia (and also in Abkhazia). National sovereignty? Look at the detachment of Kosovo from Serbia. False pretexts? Look at Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada to “rescue” US medical students. Western outrage? Look at the confused cacophony. There are lessons everywhere. To the former Soviet republics - remember your geography. To Nato - do you still want to incorporate Caucasian vendettas into your alliance? To Tbilisi - do you want to keep a President who brought this on you? To Washington - does Russia's voice still count for nothing? Like it or not, it counts for a lot. Russia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Unfortunately I think Team America is pretty much hooped...oh well you've probably got your hands full already. The trap was set in Georgia. When President Saakashvili blundered into South Ossetia, sending in an army to shell, kill and maim on a vicious scale (against US advice and his promised word), Russia was waiting. It was not only Mr Saakashvili who thought that he had the distraction of the Olympics to cover him; the Kremlin also knew that Mr Bush was watching basketball, and, in the longer term, that the US army was fully engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the day that the Russian tank brigade raced through the tunnel into South Ossetia, Russia has not made one wrong move. Mr Bush's remarks yesterday notwithstanding, In five days it turned an overreaching blunder by a Western-backed opponent into a devastating exposure of Western impotence, dithering and double standards on respecting national sovereignty (viz Iraq). The attack was short, sharp and deadly - enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic, their rout captured by global television. The destruction was enough to hurt, but not so much that the world would be roused in fury. The timing of the ceasefire was precise: just hours before President Sarkozy could voice Western anger. Moscow made clear that it retained the initiative. And despite sporadic breaches - on both sides - Russia has blunted Georgian charges that this is a war of annihilation. Moscow can also counter Georgian PR, the last weapon left to Tbilisi. Human rights? Look at what Georgia has done in South Ossetia (and also in Abkhazia). National sovereignty? Look at the detachment of Kosovo from Serbia. False pretexts? Look at Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada to “rescue” US medical students. Western outrage? Look at the confused cacophony. There are lessons everywhere. To the former Soviet republics - remember your geography. To Nato - do you still want to incorporate Caucasian vendettas into your alliance? To Tbilisi - do you want to keep a President who brought this on you? To Washington - does Russia's voice still count for nothing? Like it or not, it counts for a lot. Russia Yeah, the US will really intervene militarily against Russia. Even with all our forces pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and doubling of our military personnel. Not gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 The devil went down to Georgia... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 What will happen if one of our "mercy" flight C-17's is "accidentally" shot down by a trigger-happy Russian fighter pilot? Are we really willing to go to the wall for Georgia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 What will happen if one of our "mercy" flight C-17's is "accidentally" shot down by a trigger-happy Russian fighter pilot? Are we really willing to go to the wall for Georgia? we'll throw a hissy fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZimZam Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 This has gone beyond sabre rattling. It has the potential to get seriously out of hand very rapidly. A 21st century Cuban Missile Crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 This has gone beyond sabre rattling. It has the potential to get seriously out of hand very rapidly. A 21st century Cuban Missile Crisis. I've gotta agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 This has gone beyond sabre rattling. It has the potential to get seriously out of hand very rapidly. A 21st century Cuban Missile Crisis. no shit. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoran Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Nobody listen old man: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081101372.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 (edited) I don't think Georgians are 'the good guys' either, and Bush has bungled Russian relations from day one. Missile defense in former Soviet republics? Bad idea. If I recall we didn't take too kindly to the Soviets making friends in our sphere of influence in the central and south Americas back in the day. I don't completely blame Russia for flexing its muscle--even if the current crisis is somewhat manufactured. Fuck 'em both. Russia clearly had assets in place before this thing supposedly blew up. Just a thought: can Russia completely control its own army/officer corps? Claiming a cease fire is in place when it clearly is not is either cynical in the extreme--or political control of the military is lacking. Edited August 14, 2008 by Fairweather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted August 14, 2008 Author Share Posted August 14, 2008 They are controlling them. This is just another example of Russian politics. Say one thing and do another. Georgia is not the 'good-guy' but Russia is most certainly the bad guy. There are no innocent parties in this debacle, but there are some fairly extreme wrong doings going on right now on behalf of the Russians. Georgia is playing a propaganda game, blowing the Russian actions out of proportion, hurting their credibility and possibility of having the West come to aid; militarily or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 I don't disagree with your assessment of Russian politics, Scott, but I'm sure you realize our own government does the same thing: say one thing and do another. Take "we're going to smoke him out and kill him" for example. It is obvious that we were not after Bin Laden when we invaded Afghanistan or that, at least, capturing him was way down our list of priorities. Here's a paper from the Cato Institute you might want to read: Doublespeak and the War on Terrorism Fairweather is not far of the mark here: Russia is taking some chances and it is a dangerous situation, but their conduct is understandable at least in some fashion. Calling them liars and propagandists is a distraction at this point and only weakens our argument when it is clearly the pot calling the kettle black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canyondweller Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Wow, mattp cruising the Cato Institute site; maybe there's hope for you yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted August 14, 2008 Author Share Posted August 14, 2008 I don't disagree with your assessment of Russian politics, Scott, but I'm sure you realize our own government does the same thing: say one thing and do another. Take "we're going to smoke him out and kill him" for example. It is obvious that we were not after Bin Laden when we invaded Afghanistan or that, at least, capturing him was way down our list of priorities. Here's a paper from the Cato Institute you might want to read: Doublespeak and the War on Terrorism Fairweather is not far of the mark here: Russia is taking some chances and it is a dangerous situation, but their conduct is understandable at least in some fashion. Calling them liars and propagandists is a distraction at this point and only weakens our argument when it is clearly the pot calling the kettle black. I have no idea what the overall missions are for any given war. That is waaaaay above my paygrade. What I do know though is that there are fundamental differences in the ways that Russia went about their incursion and the way we went about ours. We notified the international community and listened (though we didn't heed their advice). We also had reconstruction on our minds; to make the country a better place (hopefully) than when we got there. Also, just because some people in our government to something wrong, doesn't absolve Putin for his wrongdoings; escpecially the violence and complete disregard for any wartime conventions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 They are controlling them. This is just another example of Russian politics. Say one thing and do another. Georgia is not the 'good-guy' but Russia is most certainly the bad guy. There are no innocent parties in this debacle, but there are some fairly extreme wrong doings going on right now on behalf of the Russians. Georgia is playing a propaganda game, blowing the Russian actions out of proportion, hurting their credibility and possibility of having the West come to aid; militarily or otherwise. Just curious, but do any of you actually know anybody from this part of the world? Or talked about this conflict with anyone from "over there"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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