Clip bolt or rap rings

[Mark O'Neal]

I was climbing with some buddies yesterday. We were rigging TR anchors on some brand new bolts that were installed at the top of the climbs. I clipped the biners through the rap rings because the orientation of the bolts were such that my large lockers got bound up on the rock. My buddies insisted that you should always clip the bolt and not the rap ring. I agreed that the bolt is probably better, but ultimately I said that I didn't think it really mattered one way or the other as long as the ring is in good shape (in this case, brand new). I looked in my John Long Climbing Anchors book and while he didn't specify, I found pictures where he clipped the bolt and others where he clipped the rap ring.

 

Long story short, what is the "right" way to do it. Clip the bolt, clip the rap ring, or clip whichever one is more convenient assuming the rap ring is in good shape?

 

 

[billcoe]

The stainless Fixe rap rings rate to 12,500 lbs. Your rope will blow first.

 

The older aluminum SMC's rate to 3,000 and are hollow, thus ensuring that as they rapidly wear and rapidly weaken, you will have no idea how strong they are. I was castigated once for clipping 2 that were doubled together at Smith. However, the rope ran much better, so I thanked them for the reminder, shrugged my shoulders and left it alone.

 

So I clip them if the situation warrants and it's dependent on what they are and how they are situated. It's generally better to reduce the length of the chain of things that can go wrong and just clip the bolts or as close as you can all other things being equal.

 

But thats me. Your results may vary.

[Rad]

Either is fine if an inspection suggests rings look ok. There are other things to worry about.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

I usually try to avoid clipping the lowest link of a chain so that it is easier to clean and thread the rope later. If the anchor has just one ring, I try and clip the bolts. If the anchor has many chain links, either the bolt or any of the non-end chain links are fine. If the rings are aluminum, I definitely prefer to clip the bolt.

[tradhead]

I've heard it argued that clipping the anchor sling's top biners the bolt hangers is best because there are less components (i.e potential failure points) in the anchor. I usually try to TR off the bolt hangers if the biners aren't bound up or cross-loaded, otherwise I'll use the chains, as the biners are likely the weak link in the anchor most of the time.

 

I second staying away from aluminum rings for anything other than rapping.

[Bill_Simpkins]

Ideally, lead it. I don't mean to sound like a smartass(I do my fair share of top ropes), but a setup like is most likely designed to be lead and rapped from.

 

Now realistically, sometimes you can clip underneathe the chains on the bolt(vs on top) and the biner fits in a lot nicer.

[Mark O'Neal]

They're bolted at the top because there is literally nowhere to place any pro in most places. We used to just tie off static ropes to large trees but the park service was nice enough to recently bolt it.

 

In general, I think I'd rather clip the bolt for one less point of failure. My problem was that I felt like the biners, when clipped to the bolts, were in a bind between the bolt and the rock when the rope was weighted. I was incredulous when my buddies still insisted that was better than clipping the rap rings.

 

Thanks for the advise, I feel vindicated.

[Rad]

If you clip the bolts and the chains/rings press on and open the gates of your biners that is bad. A biner with a strength of 23kN might fail at 9kN with the gate open.

 

If you decide to clip bolts directly, which does have less potential points of failure, try to extend your runner/quickdraws below the lowest rings/chains so that the rope runs free of these things.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Rad

[Alpinfox]

...A biner with a strength of 23kN might fail at 500-700N with the gate open

 

source please?

[kevbone]

 

Long story short, what is the "right" way to do it. Clip the bolt, clip the rap ring, or clip whichever one is more convenient assuming the rap ring is in good shape?

 

 

Mark. I think the idea behind cliping straight to the bolts is "your chain is only as strong as your weakest link". Less links.....less of a chance of something failing. IMO.

[Alpinfox]

You are dumb. Shut up.

 

 

 

 

 

When the "links in the chain" (literally in this case) between point A and B are steel, it hardly matters if there are 2 links or 50 links. Steel is bombproof.

 

What matters is making sure that your biner isn't getting tweaked sideways, bent over an edge, or pushed against something in such a way to open the gate. Aluminum carabiners can break at relatively low forces (though I don't think as low as what Rad quoted above), so make sure your carabiners are loaded along the long axis. If clipping your biners into the hangers results in the biner hanging cleanly and being loaded along the long axis, great. If you need to clip lower on the chain, fine.

 

I usually try to clip as high as possible on the anchor (usually the bolt hangers) because the top rope usually runs better with the anchor point a little higher.

 

I agree with Trogdor that it is best to avoid clipping the bottom chain link to make later threading and rappelling easier, but sometimes the chain is small and you can't get your biner through the intermediate links (lots of examples at X38) without the biner hanging kinda cockeyed, so its best to clip the bottom link then.

 

Don't clip into aluminum rap rings. Use them for threading the rope through and then rappelling and that is it. Don't toprope through them, don't lower through them, don't clip your personal anchor to them, etc.

[Rad]

...A biner with a strength of 23kN might fail at 5-7kN with the gate open

 

source please?

 

Side of biner in pictures and numbers (but I had my decimal in wrong place so was off by factor of 10):

 

Trango superfly: 24kN closed long, 7kN crossload closed, 9kN open.

 

BD wiregate (finder so not sure which): 25kN closed long, 7kN crossload closed, 9kN open.

 

[Alpinfox]

I had my decimal in wrong place so was off by factor of 10

 

That's what I thought, but it begs the question:

 

What is the breaking strength of a carabiner in the worst case scenario? That is, bent over a sharp edge with the gate open.

 

My conception of the "worst case scenario" for carabiner loading:

 

Anybody know of any pull tests on carabiners in this sort of scenario? I'm guessing the biner will fail at well below the open gate strength rating of 10kN.

 

 

[AR_Guy]

Alpinfox

 

In the example you picture, it is highly probable that it would be the lateral (out of plane) strength of the spine carabiner that would dominate, no matter if the gate were open or closed.

 

This is due to the normal 'slop' in the mechanism of the gate that would prevent the gate from picking up the sideways bending loads until the spine has deformed laterally well into the plastic (permanently bent) range. Even then, the ability of the pin attaching the gate to the body to transmit lateral bending would be minimal compared to the spine. Ditto the key lock gate to 'biner body interface in the example shown - there's too much slop to effectivly transmit significant lateral loads. There would be even less (approaching zero) ability of a typical notch and pin type gate to tranmit lateral bending loads until the spine is bent significantly (possibly to failure).

 

Bottom line: With all the slop in the load path the gate side of the 'biner, I doubt it would contribute significantly to lateral strength as the spine would have to be bent significantly before the gate side would pick up any of the load.

 

The open gate ratings on 'biners for a 'straight pull' along the long axis, are they not? 'Biners aren't rated for the loading showin by the Alpinfox photo above, are they?

 

I read somewhere (one of the instruction books I have perhaps) in discussing 'biner strength ratings, something to the effect of: Be wary of super light 'biners in that they may post acceptable numbers in the UIAA tests but that in 'real life' situations where some cross loading, 3 point loading or lateral (out of plane) loading is possible, they may not be as strong as fatter, heavier 'biners that post equal numbers in the formal tests.

 

It sure would be interesting to see the results of testing of 'biners in the configuration shown by Alpinfox.

 

 

[fallabit]

So, why is it ok to rappel from a 'weak' aluminum ring, but not top rope through it? Survival instinct would suggest to me that I always use the strongest point available, whatever I'm doing?

[snoboy]

One part of the answer to fallabit's query is that TR'ing places double the load on the anchor that rappeling does, and so reduces your safety factor..

[nkane]

I just like to make sure that the biner doesn't get wiggled around and begin to unclip itself by hitting the bolt head, the hanger, or another link of chain.

 

I've gotten to the top of a TR and see one of my draws almost falling off due to having the gate rotated into the side of the hanger. Scary.

[catbirdseat]

So, why is it ok to rappel from a 'weak' aluminum ring, but not top rope through it? Survival instinct would suggest to me that I always use the strongest point available, whatever I'm doing?

I don't think that the original question was whether you should top rope though the rappel ring, but whether it was safe to clip a draw to one. You should never top rope through a rap ring, ever. The diameter of the ring is such that the rope cuts through the ring quite rapidly. I've see what this looks like. It's scary.

 

When you rappel on a rap ring there is no movement of the rope until you pull it, and at that time, it doesn't have your body weight on it.

[goatboy]

THREAD REVIVAL: Anyone know of a pull-test on carabiner strength showing the load in AlpinFox's image (above)? I can't find anything anywhere definitively answering this question.

[IanOutThere]

It seems unlikely there is a definitive answer. The biner in the top photo is being used well outside its intended design. Why would somebody test it that way? Plus, in my opinion the further the biner is extended over the desk more force will be leveraged upon it and of course that number then would be a big range. I.e. will it fail at 5Kn if 20% is over the edge, what about %50?, a long slippery slope not worth tumbling down.

 

Answer for problem: Don't let this happen, ever.

[chubler]

Here's a video link on edge loading a carabiner:

 

Metloious Carabiner Side Loading

 

Although the gate is closed and results are posted, it appears to have failed around 1800-1900 lbs.

 

Take it for what it's worth and as said above - why would you ever place a carabiner in this postion?

[shapp]

There are't many "always" do's and don'ts in climbing. Evaluate the situation, do what feels safe, if you don't like the fixed hardware, back it up with some trad/natural placements. If in doubt, go climb another route.