Blind leading the blind

[shaoleung]

I have heard a lot of debate about what the "logical" developmental progression should be for new climbers. There are those that believe you should learn in small steps: gym bouldering to top rope plastic to gym leading... and finally trad. Then others believe the apprentice method is best: trad second for long enough to figure it out, then trad lead.

 

While there are great reasons for each thoughtful approach, one thing still vexes me: Every year, it seems like there are more and more folks at crags that know just enough to get themselves killed, and they are "teaching" other people to climb.

 

Do we let Darwin do his work? How do you approach complete strangers about safety issues without being the-dick-who-knows-everything?

[fenderfour]

I always ask one question:

 

Is anyone going to die if I let this go?

 

If the answer is yes, I step in. If it's no, I let things happen.

 

[goatboy]

Fender,

 

Could you give an example of when you'd step in, and when you wouldn't?

 

It seems to me like your criteria (imminent death) is actually a pretty broad, gray area....

 

One trigger for me in the past is seeing if kids are involved....I remember seeing a woman at Granite Point near Pullman set up an "anchor" which was comprised of two carabiners (non locking) and a since piece of webbing stretched taught between two bolts using two water knots. She had her climbing rope running directly over the center of the webbing itself, and was about to belay a kid up to the top using this setup when I intervened.

 

She was put off at first but was much more receptive after I demonstrated for her how rope cuts right through webbing....

[carolyn]

Yesterday I heard a guy approach a group with his first words being, "not to be a dick, but that is the WORST and most unsafe set up I have seen in my life". Later he tore apart a 6 year old little girl who threw a pebble off the cliff. Then proceeded to tell her if she got too close to the edge she would fall off, bounce into the river and die.

 

Those are probably not be the best approaches to take.

 

I think it is usually pretty obvious to see the difference between folks who are open to suggestions/learning and those who are not. For those who are, I will offer what I can (knowing my limitations). When surrounded by those who are not, I just move along. Heck, yesterday I took off bouldering instead of hanging around the zoo that developed around me (I had a rope thrown down on me, a biner dropped on my shoulder by someone rapping down, and someone who lost control of the direction of their rap at the last minute and practically landed on top of me). I dont really like bouldering and I suck at it. But my day was much more enjoyable than staying where I was.

 

Gym climbing is becoming MUCH more popular, bring more folks out to local crags. I think we just need to accept that as a trend for now. I found it interesting how much more time was spent with those around me yesterday laying in the sun, talking about how to get a girlfriend/boyfriend, etc than actually climbing. That is what often happens in the gym. Its becoming more of a social scene, with safety taken for granted often times (because someone else has always been there to take care of that for you).

 

My opinion may not be the best, but I just say teach those who are willing and walk away from those who are not. Be friendly when approaching anyone because they may wind up being the one's who can teach you. If you dont like what you are seeing around you and it doesnt feel right to offer assistance - go somewhere else. Like I said above, I would rather be doing a form of climbing I dont enjoy as much than around a zoo where danger looms.

 

Carolyn

 

 

 

[kevbone]

The best way to learn to climb is go straight to traditional climbing. NEVER learn to climb in a gym.

[fenderfour]

It is a big grey area.

 

If someone only has one locker on an anchor, I will let it go. If someone is about to TR off webbing, I will step in. Every situation is different.

 

I was climbing on the Apron with a new climber this weekend. We topped out and had to do a few of the exposed fourth class slabs to get down Broadway. My partner was a bit sketched looking at the exposure, so I set a fixed line. Another couple was there eying the exposure with trepidation. I offered them the fixed line.

 

They both tied in with kleimheists attached to their leg loops. This looked more like an autoblock for rappel rather than a way to traverse a fixed line. If one of them had fallen, they would have dropped straight on their head, but they wouldn't have fallen to their death, so I let it go.

[W]

I have heard a lot of debate about what the "logical" developmental progression should be for new climbers. There are those that believe you should learn in small steps: gym bouldering to top rope plastic to gym leading... and finally trad. Then others believe the apprentice method is best: trad second for long enough to figure it out, then trad lead.

 

Gym climbing has unquestionable value in terms of developing face climbing technique, as well as fitness and strength. But there is over 100 years of alpine climbing (i.e. – trad) history that was played out before the existence of indoor gyms. While starting one’s climbing apprenticeship in the gym is certainly one way to go, I’m not sure why anyone would be dogmatic about this approach. Safe rope management and belaying skills can be learned anywhere. If alpine climbing is at the heart of one’s interest, why not start by going straight to the mountains, and immediately shape the gym in your mind into what it really is- a place for physical training. The gym otherwise conditions your mind in a number of ways, some of which may require “unlearning” when you shift to the mountains. Gym climbing and sport climbing focus almost solely on the technical difficulties and mechanics of climbing; these are important aspects of climbing but they are often secondary in alpine climbing. Among other things, gym climbing does little to develop situational awareness.

 

While there are great reasons for each thoughtful approach, one thing still vexes me: Every year, it seems like there are more and more folks at crags that know just enough to get themselves killed, and they are "teaching" other people to climb.

 

This shouldn’t come as a surprise. The old school approach of yesterday was that the older climbers would mentor the younger climbers, and the knowledge of the mountains was passed down from one generation to the next; that style is largely vanishing. The trend in climbing over the past few decades has been towards individualism- teach yourself, then (maybe) teach others. The advent of commercialism in guided expeditions has further helped to stigmatize the idea of hiring a guide to learn the ropes, and the proliferation of detailed guidebooks removes some of the mystery that otherwise would prompt a greater level of preparedness, while leaving all of the hazards; ego and ambition, while certainly not new to climbing, have become all too prominent tools for measuring one’s readiness for the next challenge. The “apprenticeship” in alpine climbing if it exists has to an extent become a function of surviving these forces and, hopefully, a delayed development of humility and respect for the mountains and a more realistic assessment of one’s strengths and weaknesses. All of this gives potential for a more dangerous learning curve, as well as creating an armada of self-taught “instructors” who probably don’t even realize they are teaching unsafe methods.

 

I don't mean to overgeneralize as there are plenty of exceptions to the above, nor do I intend to convey cynicism. The above trends just tend to speak louder when they are observed in practice.

 

Do we let Darwin do his work? How do you approach complete strangers about safety issues without being the-dick-who-knows-everything?

 

I think if you don’t take someone’s ignorance personally, then the attitude you convey will be of genuine concern and respect, and they will listen to what you have to say.

[Crillz]

Not that I'm a bad ass or anything, or that others should do what I do (though I know some do) -

 

If I see super sketchy actions, I usually try and clear out of the area before an accident occurs. 99.9999999999% of the time, these people do/will make it out ok, and probably learned something in the process. For the most part, I learned everything from books and just going for it (and I had my share of clusterfks). Worked for me, should work for others too.

[Bug]

When I talk to my daughters about climbing, I always include a note about what could happen if you fail to do each thing.

I try to be honest but put it in a fun way.

Like, "That knot might work but then again it might not. You might die if it doesn't. But I'll still have all those wonderful pictures of you and I won't have to pay for college.

Do you want to see a knot that definately will work?"

 

A similar approach can be taken with strangers. Keep it light, to the point and accurate.

[Hugh Conway]

Paging Raindawg. Raindawg to the White Courtesty phone.

[Gary_Yngve]

Do we let Darwin do his work? How do you approach complete strangers about safety issues without being the-dick-who-knows-everything?

 

I think the best answer is to climb stuff where you won't run into the gomers.

 

btw - surprised the M-word wasn't brought up

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Do we let Darwin do his work? How do you approach complete strangers about safety issues without being the-dick-who-knows-everything?

 

I think the best answer is to climb stuff where you won't run into the gomers.

 

btw - surprised the M-word wasn't brought up

 

i was just gonna throw that in. catch-22 out there. blind leading the blind seems to be the universal attack no matter who/what the target is.

[fenderfour]

I think the M's are funny because they take safety to a new level. Not a bad thing when teaching n00bs.

[shaoleung]

The M's have their issues, but it's the over-confident I-boulder-V7-but-can't-tie-an-8 people that are really scary.

[Alpinsanity]

The best way to learn to climb is go straight to traditional climbing. NEVER learn to climb in a gym.

 

EXACTLY!

[tanstaafl]

I'm always impressed at how the old school guys were simultaneously carefully mentored and yet completely self taught. Talk about a scary claim -- anyone who has managed to climb for years without ever learning a thing from anybody else is not someone I want to tie in with.

 

Mark, thanks for some interesting observations. In response to your question why not go directly to the mountains: I learned to climb in a gym, because although I knew exactly what I wanted to do -- alpine trad climbing -- I knew no one who actually did it. I did, however, know one guy who knew how to belay and would go to the gym with me. Since it seemed obvious that the mountains were far more likely than the gym to kill someone who didn't know how to lead, follow, place or clean gear, I started with the safer option. Perhaps this makes me a big pansy. I don't really care. It was a starting point and I met people that I could get out with. Now I only wish I could get to the gym more often since if I did I know I'd be climbing harder.

 

[olyclimber]

I have heard a lot of debate about what the "logical" developmental progression should be for new climbers. There are those that believe you should learn in small steps: gym bouldering to top rope plastic to gym leading... and finally trad. Then others believe the apprentice method is best: trad second for long enough to figure it out, then trad lead.

 

Gym climbing has unquestionable value in terms of developing face climbing technique, as well as fitness and strength. But there is over 100 years of alpine climbing (i.e. – trad) history that was played out before the existence of indoor gyms. While starting one’s climbing apprenticeship in the gym is certainly one way to go, I’m not sure why anyone would be dogmatic about this approach. Safe rope management and belaying skills can be learned anywhere. If alpine climbing is at the heart of one’s interest, why not start by going straight to the mountains, and immediately shape the gym in your mind into what it really is- a place for physical training. The gym otherwise conditions your mind in a number of ways, some of which may require “unlearning” when you shift to the mountains. Gym climbing and sport climbing focus almost solely on the technical difficulties and mechanics of climbing; these are important aspects of climbing but they are often secondary in alpine climbing. Among other things, gym climbing does little to develop situational awareness.

 

While there are great reasons for each thoughtful approach, one thing still vexes me: Every year, it seems like there are more and more folks at crags that know just enough to get themselves killed, and they are "teaching" other people to climb.

 

This shouldn’t come as a surprise. The old school approach of yesterday was that the older climbers would mentor the younger climbers, and the knowledge of the mountains was passed down from one generation to the next; that style is largely vanishing. The trend in climbing over the past few decades has been towards individualism- teach yourself, then (maybe) teach others. The advent of commercialism in guided expeditions has further helped to stigmatize the idea of hiring a guide to learn the ropes, and the proliferation of detailed guidebooks removes some of the mystery that otherwise would prompt a greater level of preparedness, while leaving all of the hazards; ego and ambition, while certainly not new to climbing, have become all too prominent tools for measuring one’s readiness for the next challenge. The “apprenticeship” in alpine climbing if it exists has to an extent become a function of surviving these forces and, hopefully, a delayed development of humility and respect for the mountains and a more realistic assessment of one’s strengths and weaknesses. All of this gives potential for a more dangerous learning curve, as well as creating an armada of self-taught “instructors” who probably don’t even realize they are teaching unsafe methods.

 

I don't mean to overgeneralize as there are plenty of exceptions to the above, nor do I intend to convey cynicism. The above trends just tend to speak louder when they are observed in practice.

 

Do we let Darwin do his work? How do you approach complete strangers about safety issues without being the-dick-who-knows-everything?

 

I think if you don’t take someone’s ignorance personally, then the attitude you convey will be of genuine concern and respect, and they will listen to what you have to say.

 

thanks mark.

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

The commercialization of guiding is perhaps a uniquely N. American perspective on climbing.

 

Other places, especially Europe, have plenty of professional guides who make their living, for their entire life, from guiding. Climbing with a guide is an acceptable past time - even for CEOs (Reinhold Messner guided the exCEO of Daimler Benz). If you wish to start climbing you hire a guide, pursue through your local Alpine Club, or perhaps go with friends. The US doesn't have much for professional guiding, not much for Alpine Clubs, so you are left with friends.

[olyclimber]

for that euro guide perspective read the forward to Gaston Rébuffat's Starlight and Storm.

[Hugh Conway]

for that euro guide perspective read the forward to Gaston Rébuffat's Starlight and Storm.

 

eh, he was strong enough to send hard in October.

 

"We" make fun of climbing clubs, guides, gumbies, gym climbing, then bitch when people don't climb

[shaoleung]

The US doesn't have much for professional guiding, not much for Alpine Clubs, so you are left with friends.

 

I think we're pretty good for Alpine Clubs actually. Certainly in the Northwest. There are at least 2 major Alpine Clubs with a huge membership. As you said,

 

"We" make fun of climbing clubs...

 

There is such emphasis on the individual that joining a club makes people feel weak I guess. Then we seem to fixate on the few fools we find who are members of a club such as the Mountaineers and label that as the standard. I'd bet most experienced climbers have met more idiots outside that are not Mounties than are.

 

I guess the bigger picture on my original question was getting at the idea that we have a community that hates being told they're doing something wrong. While their lack of knowledge may not immediately affect me, I worry that the more people that get hurt, the more climbing areas will get shut down. There's only so much the Access Fund can do. So how does a climbing community with so many people that don't want to participate in that community keep safe and healthy?

[Bug]

I'm always impressed at how the old school guys were simultaneously carefully mentored and yet completely self taught. Talk about a scary claim -- anyone who has managed to climb for years without ever learning a thing from anybody else is not someone I want to tie in with.

 

Mark, thanks for some interesting observations. In response to your question why not go directly to the mountains: I learned to climb in a gym, because although I knew exactly what I wanted to do -- alpine trad climbing -- I knew no one who actually did it. I did, however, know one guy who knew how to belay and would go to the gym with me. Since it seemed obvious that the mountains were far more likely than the gym to kill someone who didn't know how to lead, follow, place or clean gear, I started with the safer option. Perhaps this makes me a big pansy. I don't really care. It was a starting point and I met people that I could get out with. Now I only wish I could get to the gym more often since if I did I know I'd be climbing harder.

A thoughtful combination of the two is the correct appraoch.

Alpine climbing includes knowing what you have to have to weather the weather and what you can leave behind in order to have a reasonably light pack. For this and general moving through the woods on approaches, the "Self Taught" approach works well. And get youself into situations where you might have to back out. AND BE WILLING TO BACK OUT SOON ENOUGH. Often, you will be surprised at how successfull and safe you can be. This is invaluable training on route finding and confidence building.

When it comes to roping up and getting onto 5th class, find a mentor. The most dangerous period of your climbing carreer is learning how to lead. Books are a great start. So is gym climbing and sport climbing. But having a mentor to help you figure out the variations on trad climbing and descending safely is really necessary imo.

 

There are lots of people on this site who take newbies out.

There are also classes and guides.

Be patient. Be persistent. Get out on the stuff you can do safely in the meantime.

[blackhead]

bug, will u be my mentor?

you really know some shit about some shit...

[goatboy]

 

"We" make fun of climbing clubs, guides, gumbies, gym climbing, then bitch when people don't climb

 

I appreciate the irony in your post, but I'm searching my memory banks for an example of bitching about people who don't climb....if anything, I'd be happier with fewer lines and fewer cars at trailheads, personally...with lest people stacked up on the W Ridge of Forbidden, or easier permit availability for the Enchantments, or less of an anthill crawling up the Pearly Gates....etc...

[korup]

The old timey progression of hiking, to backpacking, to following a strong leader, and then leading, gave people a pool of knowledge and experience to draw on, about weather, vegetation, personal limits, etc etc. Now, you climb in a gym twice, then go to REI and blow a wad of cash, and bingo! Youze a climber!