The Wilderness & My (Your) Rights

[AlpineMonkey]

Purely hypothetical, what are your rights in the wilderness.

 

Example:

You (or I) are walking down a trail and you encounter a ranger, but are doing nothing wrong. He asks you questions like, Where are you going?, Are you camping?, Where are you camping?, What are you doing?, What’s in your backpack?, etc.

 

This is never happened, but I want to know so if it does in the future? Do you need to answer those questions or any of their questions? Or do you have a “right to remain silent," or a "right to not answer" anything that you might think could get you into trouble. I feel like authorities often ask trick questions to learn other information which could perhaps get you in trouble. I am not about breaking rules, but I disagree with many of the wilderness rules, such as permits etc. I have never been hassled by someone in uniform on the trail, except once one ranger very kindly asked me if I filled out a day permit. I told him “no” and he asked me nicely to fill one out when I hiked out.

 

Could you be fined for not filling out those day/overnight permit things you see at all trail heads?

 

Edited June 28, 2008 by AlpineMonkey

[olyclimber]

same rights that would apply if you were walking down the street in Ellensburg

[Tokogirl]

As a former River Ranger on the Green River in Utah, the rangers are there to enforce federal land use laws. This could include making sure you have a permit, if required to be in the area you are heading to/or from or that you are not taking a dog into a designated wilderness area, etc.. Sometime they are asking questions about the trail/campsight conditions you have encountered as they don't have an opportunity to travel to all the areas they would like to gather information on.

 

The day/overnight permitting system you mention is on a volunteer basis and used to calculate numbers and types of user groups (ie. climbers, horse packers, etc.). They aren't trying to "trick" you into divulging information so they can give you a ticket.

[needtoclimb]

Feeling a little paranoid? Perhaps the ranger is brand new to the outdoors, and trying to learn the ropes?

 

Seriously, the permits are used mainly to determine how many people use various trails, and this helps relate to funding. Why spend as much time and money on a trail that sees 50 people a year, compared to one that sees 500?

[olyclimber]

I'm wondering how much time and money a particular trail needs. my favorites paths were engineered by goats.

[builder206]

If they get around to asking if you're a citizen, they have a non-land-use agenda.

[AlpineMonkey]

Seriously, the permits are used mainly to determine how many people use various trails, and this helps relate to funding. Why spend as much time and money on a trail that sees 50 people a year, compared to one that sees 500?

 

I didn't know they were voulenteer, thats good to know.

 

The voulenteer permits relate to funding for them. They did that crap to the Enchantment Wilderness to see how many people go up there. Once they found out enough people used the area they put up restrictions and began charging people to go into the woods.

 

I have a friend that was up there once and he told me that the forest service claimed that there were 200 people up there one weekend, that he was up there as well. He said its so spread out that you still don't see anyone.

 

So if I filled out the voulenteer permits for a particluar place I like to go and so does everyone else, eventually the forest service might say, "Hey, we can make a profit here" and start regulating who can go into the woods and charge us money. Perhaps 50 years from now we'll have to plan all our climbs 6 months in advance and pay to do them.

[mattp]

I HAVE encountered rangers asking those sorts of questions as "trick questions." Most of my dealings with rangers have been pretty good, and it seems that in general I have fewer and fewer complaints as the years go by but as recently as four or five years ago there was a particularly obnoxious ranger in the Leavenworth District who would play 20 question, looking for a ticket angle.

 

I don't know an easy answer to the original question. If you start saying "I don't want to answer that" or "I want to discontinue this conversation," it is probably not going to go well if you happen to have run into a ranger who may be a little too into law enforcement. You probably have some fundamental Constitutional rights, but that is not really what dictates how you want to respond to a ranger who is making you uncomfortable.

[JosephH]

Just leave the contraban Bosch at home and your next wilderness outing will be totally relaxing...

[JoshK]

How exactly is a ranger going to aprehend you? The same constitutional rights and laws against unjust search and seizure still apply. Either they are cool and just looking to chat, which seems most likely, or they are trying to harass you. If it's the latter, I would answer the basic question or two then tell them I'm going on my way if they continue. You do not have to submit to ID or questioning just because they are law enforcement.

 

[Bug]

I was a level 3 Wilderness Ranger in the Scapegoat Wilderness.

There was also a level 4 Wilderness Ranger on the district who liked to point out that the difference between 3 and 4 was that he carried a gun. That mentality permeated his approach to managing the public. Then there is "The Tool" in Leavenworth.

Unfortunately, there are more stories like this. It seems that if you flunk the test to get on a real police force you can still get a level 4 law enforcement rating with the Foest Service.

You are playing a game. It is not right. Just know that you are probably a lot smarter. Tread lightly and keep smiling.

[Wastral]

Well last time I got hasseled near cascade pass I basically gave the ranger the finger and ignored him and kept walking.

 

 

[ZONK]

You dont have any right to use your land !

all fees go to salerys and new 4x4's every year so they can keep you out !

 

[TheOtter]

I didn't know they were voulenteer, thats good to know.

 

Not so fast monkey.

 

You otter read this:

LINK

 

For the Enchantments area, day use permits are voluntary, but

Overnight Wilderness permits are required from June 15 to October 15.

 

 

[Duchess]

Questions like, "Where are you going?, Are you camping?, Where are you camping?, What are you doing?" don't sound like trick questions to me. Aren't those kinda just normal trail questions that people ask each other in the backcountry?? If you're not doing anything wrong - what's so wrong with chatting for a minute or two? If you think you're getting "hasseled," I think a pretty good response is, "why are you asking me that?" Maybe they're just lonely, or you look disoriented/confused/lost/etc, or they received a report of something happening somewhere up the trail... I've never met a wilderness ranger that I felt was out there looking to trick people and write lots of citations!!!

 

But JoshK said, "You do not have to submit to ID or questioning just because they are law enforcement." That's not true. If you're asked for an ID, because there's reasonable suspician that you're breaking a law, then yeah, you do have to provide that. You can't get pulled over by state patrol for speeding and refuse to give your ID!! You can get arrested for that! If they're investigating something you've done, you can pretty much be detained for a reasonable amount of time for them to figure out what's going on. Wilderness... city streets... that part stays the same.

 

But if you're not doing anything wrong, why view rangers as the enemy and refuse to talk to them??

 

 

Edited July 1, 2008 by Duchess

[builder206]

"You do not have to submit to ID or questioning just because they are law enforcement." That's not true.

 

Here's the fact: a cop cannot just walk up to you and demand ID. A cop cannot even ask your name. It is illegal. In order to get your ID, they must first arrest you. They must know or have reasonable suspicion that you have broken a specific known law and place you under formal arrest. Then and only then do they have standing to get your ID. In the case of a traffic stop, the flashing red lights are de facto advice that you have been arrested (detained). If you doubt this, next time you are stopped ask if you are under arrest. The cop will be kind of surprised at that but will answer, "well, yes, technically you are under arrest." The traffic infraction he/she believes she saw you commit was the "crime" that made it legal for the cop to detain you and gather information.

 

So a ranger can't stop you on the trail and out of the blue ask you your name or anything else about who you are. I can't imagine that any ranger would do that, however. Less clear to me is a ranger's legal standing to ask you your business: where you are going and so on. My first reaction is that no government employee has legal standing to do that under any circumstances unless it is a law enforcement person who has arrested you.

[builder206]

But if you're not doing anything wrong, why view rangers as the enemy and refuse to talk to them??

 

Are you an American? In America, the theory is we live at liberty free from government coercion and interference. That's the theory, anyway. The reason not to submit to questioning by government employees is that we don't have to. We don't need a excuse not to, instead government is obligated to have an objective reason for any action that requires it to stop a citizen.

[ZONK]

Well said Mr. Builder

[mattp]

You may be right about our "rights," Mr. Builder, but I personally will usually politely answer the ranger's questions and look for an opportunity to end the conversation as soon as possible. My experience has shown that law enforcement personnel do not react well to being challenged.

 

If faced with a rookie, maybe you can stand on your rights and get them to back down, but I've also heard stories of that poor rookie getting on the radio and calling in law enforcement who DID arrest climbers in the Tetons for failing to cooperate. One thing is for sure: you are asking for trouble if you give a fake name. I know that lots of people have done this over the years but it is a crime that you probably don't want to be busted for. A "crime of dishonesty" may be held against you by a subsequent employer or if you want to be appointed to take care of business for an aging parent or something.

 

I'm not suggesting you give up all sense of dignity. When a ranger has lied to me or is being unreasonable I have called them on it and on occasion followed up with a supervisor. But that is a different sort of dynamic than the "20 questions" game that is the topic of this discussion. If a ranger asks me where I'm going, I'll answer their question.

[ZONK]

Experiences with anyone You meet on a trail is what you make it. There are times I feel like talking, and times I dont. But I feel its no ones damn business what I'm doing or where I'm going.

 

 

[mattp]

Fair enough, Mr Zonk, and the ranger should be able to understand that and let you go on your way. It may well be "their business" what you are doing and where you're going, though.

[Jens]

Great post.

 

I have been asked many "trick questions". Sometimes if am taking a gym rat rock jock partner into the hills who hasn't spent much time in the alpine, they view a ranger as a bit of celebrity. Rangers rarely have valuable beta as far as climbing conditions.

 

Remember... this site is frequently checked on by rangers and the like.

[pink]

i love rangers and love to ask them lots of questions

i talked to few dead rangers last night

[kevbone]

 

Remember... this site is frequently checked on by rangers and the like.

 

 

Good.....let them know we are onto them.

[snafflehound]

......................and how is your day?