McCain speech

[bstach]

Though it has to be said that the American people seem to want just that: black or white. That is why we're seeing these campaigns built on slogans and cartoon characters. It'll be interesting to see if anything comes of the town meeting thing proposed by the McCain campaign - would either of them really subject themselves to unscripted pubic real-time debate?

Bingo!

 

The electorate gets what they deserve for not engaging the political process or issues. I would wager most people decide who they vote for based on the 10 second sound bites on the 6 o'clock news (i mean the masses - with MTV attention spans, not the learned cc.com posters). Thats why the modern political process is just a dog-and-pony show.

 

Thats my $0.02

 

Oh, and for president!!!

Edited June 6, 2008 by bstach

[ericb]

We are in the most dire of times and we need someone who WILL do what is right.

 

True that, and in the case of Iraq I think that will include showing a willingness to speak truthfully about what is and has taken place there rather than putting a whitewash on the whole thing and offering cheerleader stuff like saying it was a good idea and still is a good idea and we gotta honor the fallen;

 

I actually think that the key to success in Iraq (aka a successful withdrawal) is understanding the mistakes that have been made, learning from them, and using them to shape a successful draw-down. How a person chooses to acknowledge them in the public realm...well....that's politics but not necessarily leadership.

[Bug]

He's black.

 

he is??? what's that matter?

 

it's called hedging your bets. declare a landslide, but if you lose, you've got a ready excuse

If he loses, he loses. Whatever.

 

The question was "why are the poll numbers so scewed" and my point is that if a white male were in the same position he would be getting more support from southern democrats.

I saw a newscast lastnight where the reporter was asking people what they thought about the race factor. There were a few who flat out said they would never vote for a black man. That was in Michigan.

[strumpett]

There were a few who flat out said they would never vote for a black man.

 

What a shame.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

would either of them really subject themselves to unscripted pubic real-time debate?

 

that could be entertaining...

 

HwTKM_u-7j4

[mattp]

That was in Michigan.

 

Michigan has a lot of racism and racial tension. Even in a a routine transaction a clerk at the mini mart is not unlikely to openly display disdain for a black person if they are white, or a white person if they are black. Growing up there, we had race riots in high school. The state voted for Wallace along with seven southern states in '68.

[mattp]

I actually think that the key to success in Iraq (aka a successful withdrawal) is understanding the mistakes that have been made, learning from them, and using them to shape a successful draw-down. How a person chooses to acknowledge them in the public realm...well....that's politics but not necessarily leadership.

 

Agreed as far as the "not necessarily" part but I have a hard time imagining how we are going to be able to talk about what to do next and to repair the damage done without acknowledging, at least, that "mistakes were made."

[Hugh Conway]

That was in Michigan.

 

Michigan has a lot of racism and racial tension. Even in a a routine transaction a clerk at the mini mart is not unlikely to openly display disdain for a black person if they are white, or a white person if they are black. Growing up there, we had race riots in high school. The state voted for Wallace along with seven southern states in '68.

 

At the current Michigan is also in economic freefall.

[ericb]

I actually think that the key to success in Iraq (aka a successful withdrawal) is understanding the mistakes that have been made, learning from them, and using them to shape a successful draw-down. How a person chooses to acknowledge them in the public realm...well....that's politics but not necessarily leadership.

 

Agreed as far as the "not necessarily" part but I have a hard time imagining how we are going to be able to talk about what to do next and to repair the damage done without acknowledging, at least, that "mistakes were made."

Understand - the question is how public that "acknowledgement" needs to be. A forward looking strategy can incorporate learnings from mistakes made whether they are publicly acknowledged or not. Whether you agree or not, the Republican view generally is that one of the primary deterrents to radical islam and terrorism is the threat of reprisal - often more extreme than the original offense.....see Israeli history and "Hamas Rules" This requires a showing of strength and resolve. This will inevitably set up a constant tension between what may be best for public trust/opinion and what may be the best strategy to "win the war on terror".

[mattp]

I am sure that a threat of reprisal is almost certainly a part of the Democrats' vision for the war against terror as well and, clearly, strength and resolve is important in any foreign policy. Acknowledging that we should not have invaded Iraq in no way need undermine those objectives, but it could be a part of trying to rebuild some trust and respect. In private, even a good Republican will admit that Bush's lying about why we invaded and his go-it-alone "you're with us or against us" rhetoric -- especially when the war he led with this as his battle cry has turned into a big mess -- has undermined American prestige and respect, won't they?

 

If we decide that the war is un-salvageable and opt for some kind of pullout, wouldn't a failure to acknowledge our mistake in the first place make us look like we have less strength and resolve? Wouldn't it be better to offer at least what appears to be an honest reason for our actions?

[Bug]

I think a clear demonstration of a "threat of reprisal" would be to go kill Osama in Pakistan. We should have done that instead of going into Iraq.

Going into Iraq the way we did was counterproductive.

We now have more to lose than we did when we went in and our options there are more limited than ever. To stay will drain us financially. To withdraw will give the radicals a victory in their eyes.

Unfortunately, the latter is the only long term solution we can sustain. Our economy is already going down and will not pop back until we get out from under this gigantic debt we are ammassing.

So the only real question is "When will we pull out?" Or "When will we run out of money and credit?"

 

 

[Serenity]

We MUST protect the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia at ALL COSTS.

 

Simply vote for the candidate that will grant their effete leadership the most privileges, and buy your "freedom" by creating a Sunni hegemony.

 

I mean after all, 75 years ago the majority of people in Saudi Arabia believed that the radio was a form of sorcery. Surely we must assist them in their ascension to glory.

[Hugh Conway]

someone has to pay list for a 747-8i Boeing Business Jet

[scott_harpell]

I think a clear demonstration of a "threat of reprisal" would be to go kill Osama in Pakistan. We should have done that instead of going into Iraq.

Going into Iraq the way we did was counterproductive.

We now have more to lose than we did when we went in and our options there are more limited than ever. To stay will drain us financially. To withdraw will give the radicals a victory in their eyes.

Unfortunately, the latter is the only long term solution we can sustain. Our economy is already going down and will not pop back until we get out from under this gigantic debt we are ammassing.

So the only real question is "When will we pull out?" Or "When will we run out of money and credit?"

 

 

Killing OBL wouldn't do shit.

[scott_harpell]

....well it would be a morale victory.

[Serenity]

I predict the OBL will be turned over for the bounty as soon as Bush is out of office. Sort of like how the hostages were released as soon as Carter was out of office.

[Dechristo]

Michigan has a lot of racism and racial tension. Even in a a routine transaction a clerk at the mini mart is not unlikely to openly display disdain for a black person if they are white, or a white person if they are black.

I was raised in Michigan, as well, and had a very different experience than that you have stated. My social group was inter-religious and inter-racial; it was through that affiliation to non-affiliation that I met one of my heroes, Jesse Owens.

 

 

The state voted for Wallace along with seven southern states in '68.

...which is just another example of your skewed view:

[mattp]

Hey thanks, DeChristo. I've been holding my head in shame all these years for nothing. I was 11 in 1968 and apparently my political note-taking was a little off.

 

Meanwhile, every time I visit I still find the racial attitudes there to be very different from those here in Seattle. I never get the "what the f*@! you looking at, white boy?" kind of reaction around here and I have not encountered anybody here with even close to the racist attitudes of kids I grew up with. Flying through Detroit airport the last half dozen times, and on a fairly recent visit to my father when he lived in Ypsilanti, my wife (a Seattle native) was astonished at what she saw in this regard.

 

We in Seattle are as segregated as Detroit, to be sure, but I don't think we openly display the same measure of racism.

 

Would you agree with this, or do you think your inter-racial social group is the norm in Michigan? Really? Because virtually EVERYBODY I've talked with about this who lives in southern and particularly southeastern Michigan or comes from there has agreed that the West Coast is way less tense in this regard. I just ran into somebody at the gym the other day who agreed -- and if he says so it must be true. Maybe it is different in the UP, where there really aren't any black people, are there?

[Hugh Conway]

mattp - why do you care what a rural colorado hick has to say?

[mattp]

He set me straight on the 1968 election (but Wallace won the Democratic primary in Michigan in 1972 -- is that what I was remembering?). That's not a bad thing but I still have a serious dislike for the culture of SE Michigan. We in Seattle are culturally superior to those heartlanders.

 

You are right, though: Bug noted with what I took to be some astonishment that it was someone in a northern state who said he would not vote for a black presidential candidate and I don't think DeChristo or anyone else can dispel my notion that it is not all that surprising that such a quote would come from somebody in Michigan.

 

Meanwhile, what about that McCain speech? Did he or does he inspire you with hope for a better leader of the free world?

[Fairweather]

That's not a bad thing but I still have a serious dislike for the culture of SE Michigan. We in Seattle are culturally superior to those heartlanders.

 

Gotta disagree. Washingtonians--and Seattleites in particular--have a reputation for twofacedness when it comes to race (yes, I do believe that's a word). I could be wrong, but I'll just bet minority citizens prefer the open racism of the heartland to the subsurface racism and smug white arrogance of Seattle. Exactly what is the racial makeup and wealth distribution in this culturally superior city you speak of?

[mattp]

I could be wrong, but I'll just bet minority citizens prefer the open racism of the heartland to the subsurface racism and smug white arrogance of Seattle.

 

I realize you hate Seattle, but I bet you are incorrect in this. I don't know what it is like in Iowa, but I bet your average "person of color" in Detroit, or even liberal Ann Arbor, would find attitudes in Seattle preferable - on issues of racial tension or tolerance.

 

I've lived and worked in Michigan, Massachusetts, Florida, New Mexico, California, Oregon, and Washington. What about you? Have you ever been to Detroit? It is not a friendly place.

[Fairweather]

Yes, I have. But I'm not talking about friendly, I'm talking about what I believe is the grossly erroneous notion Seattle is culturally superior to any other place in this country. The city is little more than white condescension, subconscious racism, and a dash of wealth-guilt, all packaged in Subaru and Volvo station wagons.

[prole]

Tell it like is is black-brother!

[Fairweather]

Bellingham. Probably the whitest city in the entire state. A great place from which to preach your collectivist message and push for social reform. What a dick.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Fairweather