More Global Warming Bullshit

[Braydon]

thanks to global warming its snowing again and we get to miss the 4th day of school in a row. heres to it eh?

[Fairweather]

I have already said I woudn't discuss the details of a carbon tax without also reconsidering the entire imposition scheme including tax havens.

 

Fine, then!

[JayB]

It is symptomatic of your ideologic tunnel vision that you chose a "great leap forward" analogy instead of "marshall plan", "new deal" or "manhattan project".

 

I have already said I woudn't discuss the details of a carbon tax without also reconsidering the entire imposition scheme including tax havens.

 

Could you please use concrete examples to illustrate what you mean by the last sentence?

 

[tvashtarkatena]

It'll be interesting to see how many people stick to their guns while the global recession runs its course. Sales at whole foods are down, sales at Walmart are up - and this pretty well sums up the way that most people operate when the rubber hits the road and people have to make decisions that actually involve going without.

 

The fact that Walmart is surviving better than other businesses (I don't know about your Whole Foods assertion, nor do I know how 'green' Whole Foods really is), but yours is but a single example, against which there are many, many counter examples. There will always be a low culture segment in America with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience. Fortunately, they don't speak for the country as a whole.

 

Yes, I think this country is a better one than you do, despite all of the idiotic things we've done in recent years, that is true. Perhaps it's because my parents lived through and fought in WWII, or that I've lived to see us orbit Saturn and drive on Mars, or...I don't know. I may well be wrong, and part of me thinks I am. We'll see.

[billcoe]

It'll be interesting to see how many people stick to their guns while the global recession runs its course. Sales at whole foods are down, sales at Walmart are up - and this pretty well sums up the way that most people operate when the rubber hits the road and people have to make decisions that actually involve going without.

 

The fact that Walmart is surviving better than other businesses (I don't know about your Whole Foods assertion, nor do I know how 'green' Whole Foods really is), but yours is but a single example, against which there are many, many counter examples. There will always be a low culture segment in America with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience. Fortunately, they don't speak for the country as a whole.

 

Yes, I think this country is a better one than you do, despite all of the idiotic things we've done in recent years, that is true. Perhaps it's because my parents lived through and fought in WWII, or that I've lived to see us orbit Saturn and drive on Mars, or...I don't know. I may well be wrong, and part of me thinks I am. We'll see.

 

Well spoken Pat. However, I've noticed that as gas prices have dropped to under $1.70 a gallon, all kinds of assholes are climbing back into their Suburbans and huge SUVs that they'd parked when gasoline was approaching $4.00. They don't give a f* that WE all have to breath the fumes, or that they are burning gas 3 times faster than necessary so as to reduce the next generations reserves, and that we have our military go running over to all kinds of shitassed sandboxes with the net result of lots of dead people just to ensure that we have gas for strategic reasons.

[JayB]

It'll be interesting to see how many people stick to their guns while the global recession runs its course. Sales at whole foods are down, sales at Walmart are up - and this pretty well sums up the way that most people operate when the rubber hits the road and people have to make decisions that actually involve going without.

 

The fact that Walmart is surviving better than other businesses (I don't know about your Whole Foods assertion, nor do I know how 'green' Whole Foods really is), but yours is but a single example, against which there are many, many counter examples. There will always be a low culture segment in America with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience. Fortunately, they don't speak for the country as a whole.

 

Yes, I think this country is a better one than you do, despite all of the idiotic things we've done in recent years, that is true. Perhaps it's because my parents lived through and fought in WWII, or that I've lived to see us orbit Saturn and drive on Mars, or...I don't know. I may well be wrong, and part of me thinks I am. We'll see.

 

Yes - the poor folks do have a tendency to disappoint their betters, don't they? Well - there's also the fact that Ramanujan and Xing would really like to have a bit of AC when it's 105F and 99% humidity, think that a bit of electric lighting would be swell, and have heard that there's lots of fascinating material on the internet, and may not elect to renounce all of the above so that their more enlightened brethren in the West can continue to flip on the central heating and the plasma screen without worrying too much about the climate after zipping down to the PCC for a Bok Choy run...

[tvashtarkatena]

It'll be interesting to see how many people stick to their guns while the global recession runs its course. Sales at whole foods are down, sales at Walmart are up - and this pretty well sums up the way that most people operate when the rubber hits the road and people have to make decisions that actually involve going without.

 

The fact that Walmart is surviving better than other businesses (I don't know about your Whole Foods assertion, nor do I know how 'green' Whole Foods really is), but yours is but a single example, against which there are many, many counter examples. There will always be a low culture segment in America with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience. Fortunately, they don't speak for the country as a whole.

 

Yes, I think this country is a better one than you do, despite all of the idiotic things we've done in recent years, that is true. Perhaps it's because my parents lived through and fought in WWII, or that I've lived to see us orbit Saturn and drive on Mars, or...I don't know. I may well be wrong, and part of me thinks I am. We'll see.

 

Well spoken Pat. However, I've noticed that as gas prices have dropped to under $1.70 a gallon, all kinds of assholes are climbing back into their Suburbans and huge SUVs that they'd parked when gasoline was approaching $4.00. They don't give a f* that WE all have to breath the fumes, or that they are burning gas 3 times faster than necessary so as to reduce the next generations reserves, and that we have our military go running over to all kinds of shitassed sandboxes with the net result of lots of dead people just to ensure that we have gas for strategic reasons.

 

It's true that there will always be assholes who don't give a shit, but what's heartening is all the folks who've changed their driving (and other habits) for good, even though gas prices have gone down.

 

JayB likes to speak for the lower class and the third world factory worker; two constituencies he does not belong to and has little personal experience with, while labeling his opponents as 'elitists'. I never fail to get a kick out of it.

 

It's not about Xing being able to afford a stereo (most of the factory dorms where the lions share of new Chinese factory workers live are not air conditioned, nor is it an option, BTW) or Joe Sixpack being able to afford that big screen plasma TV; it's about taking responsibility for the consequenses of one's actions, and about being a good, long term steward of the rare, habitable little piece of astroturf we find ourselves on. Sustainability has to happen sometime, either gradually and voluntarily and or by force through catastrophe. JayB argues for the latter under the 'consume now, fuck the future' guise. I prefer the former under the 'let's all consider the impact of our actions' philosophy. He represents clinging to the past, hence the vote for McCain et al, I represent trying to make a better future. He sees human beings as units of production and consumption; I see them as somewhat more complicated creatures. Pretty simple, really.

[prole]

SERFROADER!

[JayB]

It'll be interesting to see how many people stick to their guns while the global recession runs its course. Sales at whole foods are down, sales at Walmart are up - and this pretty well sums up the way that most people operate when the rubber hits the road and people have to make decisions that actually involve going without.

 

The fact that Walmart is surviving better than other businesses (I don't know about your Whole Foods assertion, nor do I know how 'green' Whole Foods really is), but yours is but a single example, against which there are many, many counter examples. There will always be a low culture segment in America with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience. Fortunately, they don't speak for the country as a whole.

 

Yes, I think this country is a better one than you do, despite all of the idiotic things we've done in recent years, that is true. Perhaps it's because my parents lived through and fought in WWII, or that I've lived to see us orbit Saturn and drive on Mars, or...I don't know. I may well be wrong, and part of me thinks I am. We'll see.

 

Well spoken Pat. However, I've noticed that as gas prices have dropped to under $1.70 a gallon, all kinds of assholes are climbing back into their Suburbans and huge SUVs that they'd parked when gasoline was approaching $4.00. They don't give a f* that WE all have to breath the fumes, or that they are burning gas 3 times faster than necessary so as to reduce the next generations reserves, and that we have our military go running over to all kinds of shitassed sandboxes with the net result of lots of dead people just to ensure that we have gas for strategic reasons.

 

It's true that there will always be assholes who don't give a shit, but what's heartening is all the folks who've changed their driving (and other habits) for good, even though gas prices have gone down.

 

JayB likes to speak for the lower class and the third world factory worker; two constituencies he does not belong to and has little personal experience with, while labeling his opponents as 'elitists'. I never fail to get a kick out of it.

 

It's not about Xing being able to afford a stereo (most of the factory dorms where the lions share of new Chinese factory workers live are not air conditioned, nor is it an option, BTW) or Joe Sixpack being able to afford that big screen plasma TV; it's about taking responsibility for the consequenses of one's actions, and about being a good, long term steward of the rare, habitable little piece of astroturf we find ourselves on. Sustainability has to happen sometime, either gradually and voluntarily and or by force through catastrophe. JayB argues for the latter under the 'consume now, fuck the future' guise. I prefer the former under the 'let's all consider the impact of our actions' philosophy. He represents clinging to the past, hence the vote for McCain et al, I represent trying to make a better future. He sees human beings as units of production and consumption; I see them as somewhat more complicated creatures. Pretty simple, really.

 

"...I represent trying to make a better future." Really, come-on now, aren't you selling yourself a bit short? Spare us the false modesty, already.

 

 

Are the people who shop at Walmart really "..a low culture segment...with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience.", or "assholes who don't give a shit?" I don't think so, nor do I think that you have any legitimate basis for making such a claim, but I do hope that you'll take us one step closer to the better future that you represent by elaborating on that point, at length.

 

I also don't think that the vain conceit emanating from those who are so well off that they don't have to shop for bargains is the least bit justifiable, for a number of reasons. Firstly, because total consumption tracks income/wealth much more closely than where someone happens to buy their shampoo. If anyone has a moral and ethical obligation to restrict their consumption, it's the folks who can afford to fly to third world countries for a vacation, run the AC all summer and the heat all winter without worrying about whether they'll be able to afford gas or groceries, etc - not the factory worker living in a trailer in the US or an apartment block outside Shanghai.

 

Secondly, whether they realize it or not, or whether they intend to or not, they're participating in a mechanism that's lifted more people out of poverty in the past 10 years than all foreign aid has since rich countries started sending cash to the same folks that their protectionist trade and heavily-subsidized agriculture policies were helping to keep impoverished. People who don't know one another, don't like one another, and don't agree with one another have a sufficient basis for cooperation that benefits both in a framework of voluntary mutual exchange. People with no higher motive, and no particular interest in nor affinity for poor people in China, by the simple act of trying to stretch their family dollar, have - it's worth repeating - done more to alleviate poverty and suffering in the world than the all of aggregated foreign aid that's ever been donated. Strong work for a low culture segment with no vision for the future and no conscience.

 

I can understand why someone who has convinced himself that cooperative relationships amongst animals is impossible in the absence of a conscious choice to cooperate might have difficulty understanding how this this is possible, much less how it all works though.*

 

*I implore you - the vision of a better future - not to waste your time rebutting any of the above if it will distract you from even a second's work on the revolutionary ("Choice as A Driver of Symbiosis in the Animal Kingdom"?) monograph that must be behind that hypothesis. It's simply too important.

 

 

[Fairweather]

Well said. What will it take to finally pull the plug on cc.com's resident pompous windbag aka Tvastarketena? Sadly, an endless stream of TR camping reports, "recons", half-pitches, tall tales, and unsolicited pictures of other people's girlfriends seem to be his saving grace for whatever reason. The cliche "Limousine Liberal" was invented for this guy.

[tvashtarkatena]

I love when this happens.

[Bug]

I like page tops too.

[ivan]

Well said. What will it take to finally pull the plug on cc.com's resident pompous windbag aka Tvastarketena? Sadly, an endless stream of TR camping reports, "recons", half-pitches, tall tales, and unsolicited pictures of other people's girlfriends seem to be his saving grace for whatever reason. The cliche "Limousine Liberal" was invented for this guy.

dude, pat - you have a limo? wtf were we driving to canuckistan for that chill camping and recon trip for in your p.o.s., eh?

[prole]

 

"...I represent trying to make a better future." Really, come-on now, aren't you selling yourself a bit short? Spare us the false modesty, already.

 

 

Are the people who shop at Walmart really "..a low culture segment...with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience.", or "assholes who don't give a shit?" I don't think so, nor do I think that you have any legitimate basis for making such a claim, but I do hope that you'll take us one step closer to the better future that you represent by elaborating on that point, at length.

 

I also don't think that the vain conceit emanating from those who are so well off that they don't have to shop for bargains is the least bit justifiable, for a number of reasons. Firstly, because total consumption tracks income/wealth much more closely than where someone happens to buy their shampoo. If anyone has a moral and ethical obligation to restrict their consumption, it's the folks who can afford to fly to third world countries for a vacation, run the AC all summer and the heat all winter without worrying about whether they'll be able to afford gas or groceries, etc - not the factory worker living in a trailer in the US or an apartment block outside Shanghai.

 

Secondly, whether they realize it or not, or whether they intend to or not, they're participating in a mechanism that's lifted more people out of poverty in the past 10 years than all foreign aid has since rich countries started sending cash to the same folks that their protectionist trade and heavily-subsidized agriculture policies were helping to keep impoverished. People who don't know one another, don't like one another, and don't agree with one another have a sufficient basis for cooperation that benefits both in a framework of voluntary mutual exchange. People with no higher motive, and no particular interest in nor affinity for poor people in China, by the simple act of trying to stretch their family dollar, have - it's worth repeating - done more to alleviate poverty and suffering in the world than the all of aggregated foreign aid that's ever been donated. Strong work for a low culture segment with no vision for the future and no conscience.

 

I can understand why someone who has convinced himself that cooperative relationships amongst animals is impossible in the absence of a conscious choice to cooperate might have difficulty understanding how this this is possible, much less how it all works though.*

 

*I implore you - the vision of a better future - not to waste your time rebutting any of the above if it will distract you from even a second's work on the revolutionary ("Choice as A Driver of Symbiosis in the Animal Kingdom"?) monograph that must be behind that hypothesis. It's simply too important.

 

 

This one-sided "economic growth is good no matter what, rising tide, no pain no gain, sweatshops is good, destruction is creation, 300 kinds of toothpaste is freedom, let's all get rich now by any means necessary so we can afford to build zoos for whatever's left when we're done, buying plastic shit saves a Chinese baby so buy more of it" nonsense has run its course. I think we're all familiar with what capitalism has been capable of doing (no need for your dissertaion on the miracles of meat refrigeration). Now it's time to address what it is not and never will be capable of doing. Namely, wiping its own ass in terms of the ecological, psychic, and social dislocations it creates.

[tvashtarkatena]

I like page tops too.

 

I prefer topless pages.

[tvashtarkatena]

Well said. What will it take to finally pull the plug on cc.com's resident pompous windbag aka Tvastarketena? Sadly, an endless stream of TR camping reports, "recons", half-pitches, tall tales, and unsolicited pictures of other people's girlfriends seem to be his saving grace for whatever reason. The cliche "Limousine Liberal" was invented for this guy.

dude, pat - you have a limo? wtf were we driving to canuckistan for that chill camping and recon trip for in your p.o.s., eh?

 

Sorry you've had to stay in the servant's quarters and ride in the vehicle usually reserved for hauling mounds of gourmet leftovers from my lavish galas to the dump, man. At least I afford you unrestricted use of the air conditioner. As I'm sure you'll understand, the Island Estate, private jet, and stretch Hummer fleet are reserved for The Rainmakers.

 

It would seem that FW is my most devoted fan; I wasn't sure it was possible, not to mention desirable, for any one person to read every one of my posts, but there you have it. Jebus, I don't even read all of them.

 

I think I might just be the big brother FW never had.

Edited January 7, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[jclements]

Well spoken Pat. However, I've noticed that as gas prices have dropped to under $1.70 a gallon, all kinds of assholes are climbing back into their Suburbans and huge SUVs that they'd parked when gasoline was approaching $4.00. They don't give a f* that WE all have to breath the fumes, or that they are burning gas 3 times faster than necessary so as to reduce the next generations reserves, and that we have our military go running over to all kinds of shitassed sandboxes with the net result of lots of dead people just to ensure that we have gas for strategic reasons.

 

I just spent 6 weeks in the Netherlands (yeah) and it was amazing to see the cycling and walking infrastructure they have over there, not to mention the public transport. Busses and trains everywhere. People will drive if they can afford it but they won't cycle or walk if they don't see it as a viable alterntative, factoring in laziness. In the Netherlands, and I would presume elsewhere in Europe, people walk because they have to. Everything's expensive. Cars are only a meter wide and get excellent mileage (kilometerage?). I'm thinking that if we don't rebuild our infrastructure to make it easier to bike and walk everywhere with all our green stimulus thinking we're doing something wrong.

 

Just this morning, as I was waiting outside the doors of my gym waiting for it to open, it was maybe 40F. There were two big ass shiny diesel pickups in the parking lot idling their engines, presumably to keep the occupants warm while they waited for the gym to open. As soon as it was 5 am and the gym opened, people piled out of their cars. They're there to get fit, right? Doesn't getting out in the cold a bit help to stimulate the metabolism and burn calories? This is another thing: people are pampered from the cold, or just pampered in general in this country. In the NL a lot of folk have to walk to the train, bus, cycle, etc, outside more often. I did this for the time and found it an invigorating way to start the day. In most towns it is easier to walk or cycle and get outside than to drive.

 

That, and we need to be able to smoke weed legally in public meeting houses.

[underworld]

your need for a gym is well in line w/ the pampered, non-green general public

[jclements]

yeah one of these days I'm going to drop the gym and start climbing more at those sweet crags just down the street, right before work, several times a week. Otherwise no critique of American civilization applies to me.

[tvashtarkatena]

My need for a gym is in line with burrowing through a few too many holiday hams this season.

[JayB]

 

"...I represent trying to make a better future." Really, come-on now, aren't you selling yourself a bit short? Spare us the false modesty, already.

 

 

Are the people who shop at Walmart really "..a low culture segment...with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience.", or "assholes who don't give a shit?" I don't think so, nor do I think that you have any legitimate basis for making such a claim, but I do hope that you'll take us one step closer to the better future that you represent by elaborating on that point, at length.

 

I also don't think that the vain conceit emanating from those who are so well off that they don't have to shop for bargains is the least bit justifiable, for a number of reasons. Firstly, because total consumption tracks income/wealth much more closely than where someone happens to buy their shampoo. If anyone has a moral and ethical obligation to restrict their consumption, it's the folks who can afford to fly to third world countries for a vacation, run the AC all summer and the heat all winter without worrying about whether they'll be able to afford gas or groceries, etc - not the factory worker living in a trailer in the US or an apartment block outside Shanghai.

 

Secondly, whether they realize it or not, or whether they intend to or not, they're participating in a mechanism that's lifted more people out of poverty in the past 10 years than all foreign aid has since rich countries started sending cash to the same folks that their protectionist trade and heavily-subsidized agriculture policies were helping to keep impoverished. People who don't know one another, don't like one another, and don't agree with one another have a sufficient basis for cooperation that benefits both in a framework of voluntary mutual exchange. People with no higher motive, and no particular interest in nor affinity for poor people in China, by the simple act of trying to stretch their family dollar, have - it's worth repeating - done more to alleviate poverty and suffering in the world than the all of aggregated foreign aid that's ever been donated. Strong work for a low culture segment with no vision for the future and no conscience.

 

I can understand why someone who has convinced himself that cooperative relationships amongst animals is impossible in the absence of a conscious choice to cooperate might have difficulty understanding how this this is possible, much less how it all works though.*

 

*I implore you - the vision of a better future - not to waste your time rebutting any of the above if it will distract you from even a second's work on the revolutionary ("Choice as A Driver of Symbiosis in the Animal Kingdom"?) monograph that must be behind that hypothesis. It's simply too important.

 

 

This one-sided "economic growth is good no matter what, rising tide, no pain no gain, sweatshops is good, destruction is creation, 300 kinds of toothpaste is freedom, let's all get rich now by any means necessary so we can afford to build zoos for whatever's left when we're done, buying plastic shit saves a Chinese baby so buy more of it" nonsense has run its course. I think we're all familiar with what capitalism has been capable of doing (no need for your dissertaion on the miracles of meat refrigeration). Now it's time to address what it is not and never will be capable of doing. Namely, wiping its own ass in terms of the ecological, psychic, and social dislocations it creates.

 

I for one hope that you'll reveal the replacement for the market-economy/constitutional-democracy model that you painstakingly constructed in your dorm right....this....second.

 

There's not a moment to waste. Ready the hand-made 'Republican Spain Action Figures', the Risk board, and the dice from the Dungeons & Dragons set. Your hour is nigh.

[tvashtarkatena]

She's gonna be in the slide show!

Edited January 8, 2009 by tvashtarkatena