Talk to me about biodiesel

[kevino]

So between the rising gas prices and the movie I saw last week, I got thinking about using biodiesel. I was curious to hear what the critics on this board know/think about it. What does it take to convert from regular diesel to biodiesel? Who has done it or know people that have done it? I'll be doing some of my own research but was interested to get some feed back as well. Thanks.

 

(The movie was produced by Kavu about two white water kayakers who renivated an old Chinese firetruck and drove from Alaska to South America without using any petrol).

 

 

[fenderfour]

www.google.com

[Jim]

If you can find it made out of recycled restaurant grease, then it's a great thing. If it's directly from plant material; corn, switch grass, etc., then it's a losing energy proposition costing more energy to produce that it provides. Add to that the greenhouse gasses used to plant, harvest, fertilize, and transport and it's just plain stupid. But it does provide crop support for the midwest. The exception is where soy is being grown for protien and the oil is a byproduct, though critics are pointing toward inflated prices drawing in producers just for the oil now. Not so green as it's presented.

[G-spotter]

As more and more people switch to biodiesel your chances of getting it for free from restaurants decrease dramatically. Soon you will start have to start paying for it at which point the long term rate you pay is going to be about the same as regular diesel, maybe with a "green premium".

[Recycled]

I've used BD for about 5 years now. There are pros and cons. The main pro is that it is the only sustainable fuel you can get, except that now you have to pay attention to where it comes from. The folks in their Priuses can't get away from the fact that they are still using gasoline with all the attendant toxic emission, efficiency, climate change (dumping sequestered carbon), foreign policy and other issues.

 

However,.... on the con side, you have to pay attention to blends in the winter, it's more expensive, fewer BTUs per gallon and you have to be really careful using it with old fuel tanks as it will act as a solvent and release a lot of crude.

 

There's been a lot of sometimes justified bitching about biofuels lately. For example, turning corn into ethanol is nonsense. Biodiesel is under criticism for supporting the development of new palm plantations and GMO soybeans, but I think that is a transitory problem. BD has been an emerging technology and unfortunately the soy lobby has been in the driver's seat in North Amercia. Once we shift to algae production, it will make a lot more sense. Nevertheless, I still support the use of BD, as we need to build demand to the point where it makes sense to shift investment into more effective production. That is finally happening.

 

Oh, and there is no "conversion" necessary to use BD. You can use it in any % with diesel. The main issue will be tank cleanout and having to watch/replace rubber hoses as they degrade. The other side issue is that I believe it is only responsible to get a modern (mid-90s up) diesel to burn the BD. Older diesel vehicles are awful and you are doing the world no favors using BD if you are sending it up in clouds behind your 80s Mercedes, Rabbit or Truck.

 

Your intended use also matters. If you run a car like an inner-city taxi, I believe the balance would argue for a hybrid, even with gasoline. If you run mosly long-distance over-the-road mileage, the diesel will make more sense.

[Off_White]

4.99 a gallon at the pump in Olympia this morning.

[kevino]

Recycled,

 

Thanks for the response. Upon some searching I found there is a plant in ellensburg that makes biodiesel from 100% Northwest materials, so I'm going to talk to them some more.

 

As regards to the tank problem, if you cleaned the tank out before using BD, would that solve the problem? Or is it unavoidable?

 

What kind of diesel do you use? I was thinking along the lines of a VW tdi.. Thanks again.

 

Fenderfour - Learn to read:

 

I'll be doing some of my own research but was interested to get some feed back as well. Thanks.

[Jim]

If you're going this way you might check this Seattle source:

 

http://www.fuelwerks.com/

[Recycled]

As regards to the tank problem, if you cleaned the tank out before using BD, would that solve the problem? Or is it unavoidable?

 

What kind of diesel do you use? I was thinking along the lines of a VW tdi.. Thanks again.

 

I personally have not had a tank problem, but then again I was cautious and changed my fuel filters at half the standard interval for the first 20k miles or so. When I had known funky tanks (on a boat), I replaced the tanks before using BD. The fleet companies that I've worked with on BD issues have had some problems but it almost always goes back to not watching fuel filters.

 

I've run BD in rabbits and mercedes (BAD, I know), a 1998 TDI, our two 2004 TDIs with the PD engines, and my F250 with a 7.3 engine. The VW TDIs come ready to run BD - I've never had to replace hoses on them, but you'll be on your own if there are warrenty issues. That was a risk I am willing to take and there have been no problems. I usually run 100% March-October, then 50% November-December to avoid gelling.

 

Also, Wikipedia actually has a very good piece on BD.

 

 

[Bug]

4.99 a gallon at the pump in Olympia this morning.

[fenderfour]

Fenderfour - Learn to read:

 

I'll be doing some of my own research but was interested to get some feed back as well. Thanks.

 

Oh, I can read. I'm not the one who asked "What does it take to convert from regular diesel to biodiesel?"

 

Two minutes on google tells me that I need to flush the fuel system, replace natural rubber hoses, and install a tank heater in cold climates.

[ken4ord]

Biodiesil will one day cost as much as regular diesel. Basically the best thing you can do is drive less. Right now manufactured biodiesel is causing a lot of food security issues. So if you are interested in switching to biodiesel for environmental reason, I do see it being better than other fuels out there. If you are doing because of cost in the long it may cost you more later.

 

Offwhite and the rest of you whinner about fuel costs, need to wake up. You guys are spoiled rotten out there. The US has way cheaper fuel price than a lot of other countries. Guess what, it is going to keep getting more expensive so get used to it, and stop your bitching. Try $6.70 a gallon for diesel here in Rwanda, which happens to be more than most people here earn in a day.

[JayB]

I've used BD for about 5 years now. There are pros and cons. The main pro is that it is the only sustainable fuel you can get, except that now you have to pay attention to where it comes from. The folks in their Priuses can't get away from the fact that they are still using gasoline with all the attendant toxic emission, efficiency, climate change (dumping sequestered carbon), foreign policy and other issues.

 

However,.... on the con side, you have to pay attention to blends in the winter, it's more expensive, fewer BTUs per gallon and you have to be really careful using it with old fuel tanks as it will act as a solvent and release a lot of crude.

 

There's been a lot of sometimes justified bitching about biofuels lately. For example, turning corn into ethanol is nonsense. Biodiesel is under criticism for supporting the development of new palm plantations and GMO soybeans, but I think that is a transitory problem. BD has been an emerging technology and unfortunately the soy lobby has been in the driver's seat in North Amercia. Once we shift to algae production, it will make a lot more sense. Nevertheless, I still support the use of BD, as we need to build demand to the point where it makes sense to shift investment into more effective production. That is finally happening.

 

Oh, and there is no "conversion" necessary to use BD. You can use it in any % with diesel. The main issue will be tank cleanout and having to watch/replace rubber hoses as they degrade. The other side issue is that I believe it is only responsible to get a modern (mid-90s up) diesel to burn the BD. Older diesel vehicles are awful and you are doing the world no favors using BD if you are sending it up in clouds behind your 80s Mercedes, Rabbit or Truck.

 

Your intended use also matters. If you run a car like an inner-city taxi, I believe the balance would argue for a hybrid, even with gasoline. If you run mosly long-distance over-the-road mileage, the diesel will make more sense.

 

I've heard some interesting things about using the heat and CO2 in the exhaust from coal and gas fired power plants as feedstock for alagae that are engineered to capture sunlight more efficiently and generate compounds that can be more easily converted into fuel than sugar.

 

"Engineering photosynthetic light capture: impacts on improved solar energy to biomass conversion.

Mussgnug JH, Thomas-Hall S, Rupprecht J, Foo A, Klassen V, McDowall A, Schenk PM, Kruse O, Hankamer B.

 

Institute for Molecular Bioscience, The University of Queensland, Brisbane, Qld 4072, Australia.

 

The main function of the photosynthetic process is to capture solar energy and to store it in the form of chemical 'fuels'. Increasingly, the photosynthetic machinery is being used for the production of biofuels such as bio-ethanol, biodiesel and bio-H2. Fuel production efficiency is directly dependent on the solar photon capture and conversion efficiency of the system. Green algae (e.g. Chlamydomonas reinhardtii) have evolved genetic strategies to assemble large light-harvesting antenna complexes (LHC) to maximize light capture under low-light conditions, with the downside that under high solar irradiance, most of the absorbed photons are wasted as fluorescence and heat to protect against photodamage. This limits the production process efficiency of mass culture. We applied RNAi technology to down-regulate the entire LHC gene family simultaneously to reduce energy losses by fluorescence and heat. The mutant Stm3LR3 had significantly reduced levels of LHCI and LHCII mRNAs and proteins while chlorophyll and pigment synthesis was functional. The grana were markedly less tightly stacked, consistent with the role of LHCII. Stm3LR3 also exhibited reduced levels of fluorescence, a higher photosynthetic quantum yield and a reduced sensitivity to photoinhibition, resulting in an increased efficiency of cell cultivation under elevated light conditions. Collectively, these properties offer three advantages in terms of algal bioreactor efficiency under natural high-light levels: (i) reduced fluorescence and LHC-dependent heat losses and thus increased photosynthetic efficiencies under high-light conditions; (ii) improved light penetration properties; and (iii) potentially reduced risk of oxidative photodamage of PSII."

[Dannible]

Might not make any difference to you depending on how old your car is, but I think using BD voids your warranty in most cases. My dad used to work at a dodge and VW dealership and I remember him saying that there were a lot of people coming in with engines that were messed up because they used biodiesel (maybe they just didn't change their fuel filters enough?) and often they didn't know that they voided their warranty.

[G-spotter]

Don't forget making pig shit into methane like in Mad Max

[Recycled]

Biodiesil will one day cost as much as regular diesel. Basically the best thing you can do is drive less. Right now manufactured biodiesel is causing a lot of food security issues. So if you are interested in switching to biodiesel for environmental reason, I do see it being better than other fuels out there. If you are doing because of cost in the long it may cost you more later.

 

Biondiesel IS more than diesel. BD was $5.15/gallon in B'ham yesterday, vs. about $4.60 for diesel.

 

Don't confuse ethanol with BD. BD can be made from either food or non-food oils and has tradionally been made from off-spec food oils and recovered grease. That is [termporarily?] changing in response to demand, but I expect the shift away from food oils sooner rather than later. That's far different than the corn/ethanol bullshit that's going on in the US.

[Recycled]

Might not make any difference to you depending on how old your car is, but I think using BD voids your warranty in most cases. My dad used to work at a dodge and VW dealership and I remember him saying that there were a lot of people coming in with engines that were messed up because they used biodiesel (maybe they just didn't change their fuel filters enough?) and often they didn't know that they voided their warranty.

 

I've never had any problems with ASTM commercial BD. Most problems historically from home-brew by non-chemist hippies. They think it's really cool to make your own fuel (and it is), but they underestimate the complexity of producing clean fuel from variable feedstocks.

[ivan]

Don't forget making pig shit into methane like in Mad Max

master-blaster runs barter-town!

 

2 men enter, 1 man leaves!

[Off_White]

Ken, that's because in Rwanda gasoline costs 1.46 times the world average. The US is at 77% of the average, and if you lived in Turkmenistan you'd pay about $ .03 per liter. Source: NationMaster.com

 

At the same station in Olympia where 99% Biodiesel was $4.99 a gallon, petro diesel was $4.29 and regular unleaded gasoline was $3.29. In relative terms, you've really got to pay a premium if you believe using BD is the right thing to do.

[JayB]

I'm personally relieved as hell to learn that the price of diesel is a top-of-mind concern in Rwanda these days...

[Dannible]

Ken, that's because in Rwanda gasoline costs 1.46 times the world average. The US is at 77% of the average, and if you lived in Turkmenistan you'd pay about $ .03 per liter. Source: NationMaster.com

 

At the same station in Olympia where 99% Biodiesel was $4.99 a gallon, petro diesel was $4.29 and regular unleaded gasoline was $3.29. In relative terms, you've really got to pay a premium if you believe using BD is the right thing to do.

 

Where in Oly is it 3.29? Thats .30 less than most places I think.

[iciclespyder]

Biodiesel may be taking food away from the poor. Have you looked at the price of rice lately? While it might give you a nice fussy green feeling, you could be burning someone's dinner.

[olyclimber]

every time you recycle a pop can god kills a widdle kitten

[G-spotter]

Biodiesel may be taking food away from the poor. Have you looked at the price of rice lately? While it might give you a nice fussy green feeling, you could be burning someone's dinner.

 

how much biodiesel is made from rice? rice is not known as an oilseed....

[Fairweather]

Biodiesel may be taking food away from the poor. Have you looked at the price of rice lately? While it might give you a nice fussy green feeling, you could be burning someone's dinner.

 

how much biodiesel is made from rice? rice is not known as an oilseed....

 

Kind of narrow thought. More corn production for ethanol = less land for wheat and soy = higher prices for smaller supply = more price pressure on commodities (including rice) world wide.