Islam: fear trumps freedom

[Fairweather]

I'm really not interested in seeing the Dutch mini-film, "Fitna", but the idea that Islamic radicals can control the flow of ideas through fear within societies that claim to be free is an outrage.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

 

...Sad day is right.

[STP]

I suggest it's rather the opposite. The ones benefiting are the opportunists who gain political capital by pushing hate. Who benefits? The Muslim immigrants to Europe or the anti-immigrationists? Same applies here (America) with regard to other matters.

 

Not taking sides here, given that the immigration has produced problems with nonintegration but that's another problem seeking another solution.

[glassgowkiss]

I suggest it's rather the opposite. The ones benefiting are the opportunists who gain political capital by pushing hate. Who benefits? The Muslim immigrants to Europe or the anti-immigrationists? Same applies here (America) with regard to other matters.

 

Not taking sides here, given that the immigration has produced problems with nonintegration but that's another problem seeking another solution.

 

i must say you are greatly mistaken. for once i must agree with fw on this one. the problem is islam and the immigrants themselves. maybe less turks. being immigrant myself i can't agree nor accept their mentality. they do move to different countries, with long history and culture. simply you can't show up and try to change these countries into muslim republics, just because you moved there.

you can't even compare immigrants from mexico and other latin countries to what's happening in europe.

and maybe you should posting your uneducated opinions maybe you should read some history books to understand the whole issue.

[kevbone]

"** 30/3/2008: Liveleak Update **

 

On the 28th of March LiveLeak.com was left with no other choice but to remove the film "fitna" from our servers following serious threats to our staff and their families. Since that time we have worked constantly on upgrading all security measures thus offering better protection for our staff and families. With these measures in place we have decided to once more make this video live on our site. We will not be pressured into censoring material which is legal and within our rules. We apologise for the removal and the delay in getting it back, but when you run a website you don't consider that some people would be insecure enough to threaten our lives simply because they do not like the content of a video we neither produced nor endorsed but merely hosted."

[Fairweather]

That IS good news! As of yesterday there was simply a message posted citing fear and intimidation as the reasons for the removal of the film from the site. I'll have to check it out later this evening and see what the "controversy" is all about.

 

 

 

 

[archenemy]

Is there really anyone left who can say that the religion of Islam is a good thing and should be welcomed with open arms? Where are all these so-called "moderates" in this installation of the conflict? I don't see them standing up and saying anything. I don't see them saying they'll put their lives on the line to protect the lives of others.

 

Fuck them.

[Off_White]

[olyclimber]

slXcHNHEOqg

[Serenity]

 

That's WAY out line. Even for you man.

[kevbone]

That's WAY out line. Even for you man.

 

 

That is no way out of line. McCain’s own words are we will be in Iraq for 100 years…..bomb IRAN…….so not out of line.

 

 

McCain is more of Bush.

 

 

[Serenity]

Is there really anyone left who can say that the religion of Islam is a good thing and should be welcomed with open arms? Where are all these so-called "moderates" in this installation of the conflict? I don't see them standing up and saying anything. I don't see them saying they'll put their lives on the line to protect the lives of others.

 

Fuck them.

 

It is IN FACT, the duty of every Muslim to convert 'non-believers'. They are IN FACT justified in killing non believers if they refuse the words of the prophet. Believe it. Not every Muslim is that far to the end of the spectrum by any means, but there are certainly enough of them looking to bang heads to make it a serious threat.

 

Good thing I'm watching your back there OW, otherwise you might need to start reading the Khoran.

[Serenity]

That's WAY out line. Even for you man.

 

 

That is no way out of line. McCain’s own words are we will be in Iraq for 100 years…..bomb IRAN…….so not out of line.

 

 

McCain is more of Bush.

 

 

So by your measure we would have ceded the Korean penninsula after 50,000+ American soldiers died there. And now South Korea instead of being a staunch ally, trusted trading partner, and free republic would be the other side of Kim's empire? Get a clue.

[glassgowkiss]

Is there really anyone left who can say that the religion of Islam is a good thing and should be welcomed with open arms? Where are all these so-called "moderates" in this installation of the conflict? I don't see them standing up and saying anything. I don't see them saying they'll put their lives on the line to protect the lives of others.

 

Fuck them.

 

i would think most of europe was more then accommodating for them so far. what do they get in return- blown up trains! if they don't like western culture and the way people choose to live in this part of the world they should stay the fuck in a desert and fuck their camels. i predict in 5-10 years there are going to be detention centers in europe for these fuckers.

i personally had a "pleasure" of living with sunis in one building. all i can say- i was not impressed. there is nothing moderate about islam.

[kevbone]

 

It is IN FACT, the duty of every Muslim to convert 'non-believers'. They are IN FACT justified in killing non believers if they refuse the words of the prophet.

 

And you wonder why Islam is the most ludicrous of all religious. Trying to convert others to your religion is not new to religion. Matter of fact I believe that to be true to most religions. But to kill those who don’t see eye to eye with you is more of a cult type thinking than anything. What a bunch of nut cases.

[Serenity]

The good thing is that Europeans that I met are pretty aware of, and sick of their own immigration problems the Muslims are creating. If you tried to proselytize Christianity in Saudi Arabia it's doubtful you would ever see the light of day again, or worse.

 

Making threats to free societies journalism is cowardly and deserves a solid kick to the front door of whatever shithole internet cafe you are spreading hate from.

[Serenity]

McCain? He's not the enemy, and deserves more respect then is being accorded here. The man spent 5 years in a notorious POW camp. That's a major sacrifice, that none of us will hopefully ever comprehend. I'm not saying that makes you the best candidate, but it also gives you honor above being called out like a punk in this internet forum.

 

If Obama had a credible foreign policy stance, I might consider voting for him, but his 16 month pull out plan, makes no sense whatsoever. There is no solid criteria or reasoning to offer this plan up to the American public other than to attract votes from the uneducated.

 

We don't need capitulation in the face of bold threats. The threat is very real, and will simply follow us to whatever rock some people think we need to hide under. I for one am not hiding, and never have.

[glassgowkiss]

That's WAY out line. Even for you man.

 

 

That is no way out of line. McCain’s own words are we will be in Iraq for 100 years…..bomb IRAN…….so not out of line.

 

 

McCain is more of Bush.

 

 

So by your measure we would have ceded the Korean penninsula after 50,000+ American soldiers died there. And now South Korea instead of being a staunch ally, trusted trading partner, and free republic would be the other side of Kim's empire? Get a clue.

 

doesn't mean that current approach is right either. particularly catering of present administration to saudi royal family. after all it was saudi citizens who flew planes on 9/11. the problems with iraq is iraq country in itself. there are 3 nations, who hate each other for centuries. it's more like middle east version of yugoslavia. except this administration was too dumb to see it and is still too dumb to do anything about it. in Korea there was a clear military goal. what is the goal in iraq now? first there were wmd'd, then terrorists. newsflash- husein did not tolerate competition.

besides- you are mistaking issue of muslims moving to western countries and muslims living in their own homelands. personally i don't give a rats fuck what they do in their own back yard.

[glassgowkiss]

McCain? He's not the enemy, and deserves more respect then is being accorded here. The man spent 5 years in a notorious POW camp. That's a major sacrifice, that none of us will hopefully ever comprehend. I'm not saying that makes you the best candidate, but it also gives you honor above being called out like a punk in this internet forum.

 

If Obama had a credible foreign policy stance, I might consider voting for him, but his 16 month pull out plan, makes no sense whatsoever. There is no solid criteria or reasoning to offer this plan up to the American public other than to attract votes from the uneducated.

 

We don't need capitulation in the face of bold threats. The threat is very real, and will simply follow us to whatever rock some people think we need to hide under. I for one am not hiding, and never have.

 

the problem is that thus far this policy did not work. you can't win this war with military means. never happened in history. even mighty soviets did not squash afhanistan. the problem is that capitulation already happen, except nobody wants to admit it

[kevbone]

McCain? He's not the enemy, and deserves more respect then is being accorded here.

 

I agree, he is not the enemy

 

The man spent 5 years in a notorious POW camp. That's a major sacrifice, that none of us will hopefully ever comprehend. I'm not saying that makes you the best candidate, but it also gives you honor above being called out like a punk in this internet forum.

 

So why is he for water boarding? If you don’t speak out against such an act openly and clearly….then you are for it.

 

If Obama had a credible foreign policy stance, I might consider voting for him, but his 16 month pull out plan, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

You are right. 16 months is way to long. They should start the withdrawal tomorrow. I really have no time or energy to worry about Iraq. I have my own problems supporting my family and healthcare to worry about.

 

 

We don't need capitulation in the face of bold threats. The threat is very real, and will simply follow us to whatever rock some people think we need to hide under. I for one am not hiding, and never have.

 

What threat is that? Terrorism? I believe that most Islamic crazy people are pissed at the USA because we OCCUPY their country. If we simply left the Middle East….IMO that would go along way towards what others thought about the USA.

 

[glassgowkiss]

Kev- the biggest problem is that once it's muslim land it can't be in hands of "infidels" ever again! the second biggest problem is that most of muslims are fanatical and there is no room for religious tolerance in their philosophy.

[billcoe]

If Obama had a credible foreign policy stance, I might consider voting for him, but his 16 month pull out plan, makes no sense whatsoever. There is no solid criteria or reasoning to offer this plan up to the American public other than to attract votes from the uneducated.

 

Well said: however I highly suspect that once all of his other ideas and plans finally see the light of day, even the unwashed masses who voted him in will be unsatisfied like you cannot imagine. Some of you here will be looking back fondly on the Bush years, despite your yowls otherwise about it now.

[sobo]

I'm really not interested in seeing the Dutch mini-film, "Fitna", but the idea that Islamic radicals can control the flow of ideas through fear within societies that claim to be free is an outrage.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

 

...Sad day is right.

 

FW:

More discussion on this thread, too.

 

And BTW, you should watch the film.

[glassgowkiss]

Well said: however I highly suspect that once all of his other ideas and plans finally see the light of day, even the unwashed masses who voted him in will be unsatisfied like you cannot imagine. Some of you here will be looking back fondly on the Bush years, despite your yowls otherwise about it now.

 

looking back fondly? look- the guy is a genuine idiot! hired a bunch of wankers to do a men's job. if he wanted to go to war that bad he should have listened to army generals- who wanted over 350 thousand troops to secure the country after the invasion. but he didn't. he fucking kept that sheep shagger dumsfeld- which was a huge mistake.

second- the biggest rate of inflation since 70's, us currency in the dumbster, biggest budget deficit ever. he makes look carter like financial conservative.

oh and btw my biggest gripe- letting resurrect soviet empire! with crude over 100 bucks, natural gas all time high and gold over 1000 bucks he gave all resources to these fucks. and all the blessings to do whatever they want in the name of war on terror.

[Recycled]

It seems to me that Islam really is different than other religions and that is the source of the friction. As I understand it, the Koran is the direct word of god, as passed on by an angel and recorded by Muhammad and his followers. The Christian hedge of picking and choosing which bible verses to consider currently relevant is not an option in Islam. The Koran is the word of god and is his direct command.

 

Islam is a very effective viral religion. It was a millennia ago and it still is. You’re either one of them via birth or conversion or you are to be destroyed. That worked in tribal times and seems to be the view of many now. I understand that there are many complex nationalistic and tribal aspects to fundamentalism, but it doesn’t seem accurate to simply write off fundamentalists as a subset of a larger peaceful religion. Either you believe the word of god or you don’t. The fundamentalists do, and take it seriously.

 

I have not heard a groundswell of muslim outrage over the excesses of the fundamentalists. Are they marching in the streets, castigating hate-spewing imans, shunning followers and cutting off financing for fundamentalists? Not that I can see. Until the moderate followers explain which “words of god” in the Koran should be ignored and why, and start to counter their fellow religionists, I have a hard time digesting muslim outrage over the movie. Although the movie is very one-sided, perhaps they could enlighten us about why most of the recent world terrorism events (specific targeting of civilians through suicide and other bombs) seem to be muslim-originated.

 

[glassgowkiss]

It seems to me that Islam really is different than other religions and that is the source of the friction. As I understand it, the Koran is the direct word of god, as passed on by an angel and recorded by Muhammad and his followers. The Christian hedge of picking and choosing which bible verses to consider currently relevant is not an option in Islam. The Koran is the word of god and is his direct command.

 

Islam is a very effective viral religion. It was a millennia ago and it still is. You’re either one of them via birth or conversion or you are to be destroyed. That worked in tribal times and seems to be the view of many now. I understand that there are many complex nationalistic and tribal aspects to fundamentalism, but it doesn’t seem accurate to simply write off fundamentalists as a subset of a larger peaceful religion. Either you believe the word of god or you don’t. The fundamentalists do, and take it seriously.

 

I have not heard a groundswell of muslim outrage over the excesses of the fundamentalists. Are they marching in the streets, castigating hate-spewing imans, shunning followers and cutting off financing for fundamentalists? Not that I can see. Until the moderate followers explain which “words of god” in the Koran should be ignored and why, and start to counter their fellow religionists, I have a hard time digesting muslim outrage over the movie. Although the movie is very one-sided, perhaps they could enlighten us about why most of the recent world terrorism events (specific targeting of civilians through suicide and other bombs) seem to be muslim-originated.

it pretty much nails it. however this administration chose the worst possible response. and i don't see close ties with saudis have any long term benefits for the west.