Driving Pickets

[doumall]

As a the rescuer in a two man rope team how do you drive a picket without the use of your axe which would be currently used for arrest? Do most rope teams carry a hammer? Thanks

Edited February 11, 2008 by doumall

[Alex]

"Do three man teams typically carry a hammer?"

 

No. You drive it with the side of the head of your axe, not the adze. Quite honestly, if the snow is SO firm that it will take a driven picket, what are you doing falling into a crevasse? Crevasse falls are usually in softer-snow conditions. In which case you'll be trenching that picket, not driving it. A driven picket in soft snow won't hold a fly.

[tomtom]

That's something to think about. Even with a hammer, how would you drive in a picket into hard snow while in the arrest position?

 

 

[ClimbingPanther]

in a 2-man team, unless you're wicked-skilled, you pretty much rely on your partner's ability to extricate himself on prusiks. don't think you could do it yourself unless you have tried it successfully.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

in a 2-man team, unless you're wicked-skilled, you pretty much rely on your partner's ability to extricate himself on prusiks. don't think you could do it yourself unless you have tried it successfully.

 

I saw a demo of setting up a z-pulley for a 2 person team. It was tricky and quite interesting. Basically to set up that first anchor, you need to be able to hold the fallen teammate with your body weight and crampons.

[doumall]

Side of the axe... check.

 

Getting off the axe and using crampons/body weight to arrest while building a deadman... check.

 

Sounds easy

 

Another question: In a two man team, do you suggest carrying two pickets each for a backup to the original anchor.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Side of the axe... check.

 

Getting off the axe and using crampons/body weight to arrest while building a deadman... check.

 

Sounds easy

 

Another question: In a two man team, do you suggest carrying two pickets each for a backup to the original anchor.

 

yes. also, you want to each carry a couple coils to work with (kiwi coil).

 

 

[spotly]

in a 2-man team, unless you're wicked-skilled, you pretty much rely on your partner's ability to extricate himself on prusiks. don't think you could do it yourself unless you have tried it successfully.

 

I've been over the mechanics of this and have practiced for a 2-man team and have just assumed I could physically do it. I've held a fallen partner and even though it didn't take too much strength (under that situation), I did not have the need for digging a trench so I can't be positive that I could have. Since I'm usually 2 to a rope, guess I should chuck my partner off a deep end somewhere and try digging for more empirical data.

[denalidave]

All the crevasse falls I've experience, a dozen or more (some me falling, some my partner(s) falling), the rope cut far enough into the snow to hold the fallen climber without the other climbers even feeling the rope pull. By the time we got a z pully half set up the climber was already out on his own in every single case. Maybe that was just a coincidence but I think it is fairly common for the rope to cut in to the snow like that. With a team of 2, even with a z pully set up, you are going to have to be pretty strong to get someone out but it is possible. Best to keep your pickets easily available on your harness so if you do need to place one you can get it with one free hand, assuming your other hand is holding the fallen climber. Still gonna be a bitch placing it if you have to hold the climber and his gear though.

[catbirdseat]

I lent an ice tool to a partner once. He used the adze to drive a picket. He damaged both the adze and the picket. Fortunately the picket wasn't mine.

[Bug]

I have been known to carry an extra tool of the light hammer variety in certain "tween' conditions. For awhile I used a Forrest hammer with the recurve pick. Now I have a Raptor that Pax sold me for an arm and a leg. I also shorten my main leash a little so I can set the pick deep, hang on the leash (with my crampons helping) and then bang that picket in hard and deep.

But so far, no go. The guy's been out like a shot every time as was described earlier. But it works in my tests!

[tvashtarkatena]

Snow anchors for glacier rescue are really for the descent when conditions warm up and there is more of a chance of poor snow conditions causing a slip (although, with enough experience, this shouldn't happen). So, how does a team avoid lugging pickets along?

 

Ski pole: A ski pole makes a good deadman if placed properly, is lighter than a picket, and makes for a more efficient ascent/descent when your buddy isn't flailing in a crevasse.

 

Long, flat rock: carried on the descent and only through the necessary sections. Or just put one in your partner's pack for fun.

 

Sticks: Grab at tree line, toss at tree line.

[kurthicks]

I think that those are ridiculous solutions Tvash.

 

When I teach crevasse rescue, the first rule is to utilize proper travel techniques to avoid falling in--especially falling in to the point where an anchor is necessary for hauling or prussiking. Keep the rope perpendicular to crevasses as much as possible, keep slack to a minimum, and communicate as a team when crossing dubious slots.

 

Let's say that unanticipated crevasse fall is likely to occur (as Tvash mentioned) on the descent due to warming conditions and weakened snow bridges (or in shallow snowpacks or any number of other reasons, but for the Cascades, let's go with this). With soft snow being our context here, it is quite easy to hold the victim's weight by kicking your feet in securely after arresting the fall. So long as you keep your hips close to the snow, it is relatively easy to raise your torso to dig a T-slot (for an axe or picket) or place a vertical picket (which probably won't hold much due to the weak snow conditions that caused the fall in the first place). Flukes are easier to place when face down in self-arrest. Then all you have to do is attach the rope to the anchor to escape the system; use a friction hitch (prussik, etc), Mariner, Munter Mule, Garda, etc. Then, choose whichever haul system you like.

 

There are many many more issues to think about--this is not an exhaustive review of crevasse rescue. Regardless, the trick is to practice. Do it safely--Use a second rope to tie your partner to a separate anchor or have them rappel into the crevasse, then weight you...so you both don't take the plunge.

 

My typical glacier travel equipment is (assuming we're not kiwi coiled):

1 short prussik (a la autoblock)

1 leg prussik or cordelette

2 lockers

3 non-lockers

1 picket w/sling or fluke on each end of the rope

 

Kurt

[G-spotter]

it's much lighter and more lucrative to just carry a knife and Simpson-Yates method your dangling partner

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, well, we've all taught crevasse rescue (for 7 years in my case). It's pretty easy to call certain practices ridiculous on the internet without having any experience with them or stating why, but it doesn't help the original poster much with his inquiry. Bad form, brah.

 

I've tried all of these anchors, and they all work just fine. I've been climbing for 25 years, and I've never taken pickets just for crevasse rescue, but everyone needs to figure out what works for them. That's what this forum is for; an exchange of ideas. Some people are uncomfortable with some of the newer (actually, mine are very OLD) ideas, and that's understandable.

Edited February 14, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

BTW, here's way more than you ever wanted to know about placing pickets (or any other object used as a deadman if you generalize the principles)

 

Snow Anchors

[kurthicks]

excellent points Tvash. The NZ article is good for the OP to read. the 'ridiculous'-ness to me is that new climbers should be exposed to and practice more modern anchoring solutions prior to using dead twigs from alpine krumholtz to anchor their fallen brethren.

[mattp]

I fully agree that new climbers should be exposed to and practice crevasse rescue techniques, Kurt, if for no other reason than to get an appreciation for just how difficult it is with a two person team.

 

I"m not suggesting that it doesn't help to know what you're doing but the reality that many books and instructors do not seem to acknowledge is that with a larger group you don't need any technique at all and with a two-person team you are probably screwed if the guy in the hole cannot help get himself out.

[tvashtarkatena]

Point well taken. It just sounded hurtful, you know, it being Valentine's Day and all.

 

I agree that it's best to learn established practices on regular gear before 'innovating'. My ideas were more for possible future experimentation for the poster. Any natural deadman, rock, stick, or dried carcas, must be carefully chosen for the task of course.

 

I mention some of these old school tricks to newbies because it gives them more options when they find themselves without certain gear. Rapping over a schrund or moat is one example that's more likely than a crevasse rescue assuming proper probing and terrain reading are being practiced. By way of example, being able to properly deadman and rap off a rock has proven to be invaluable for me on several occasions, particularly on circumnavigations or traverses where you're not sure what you'll encounter on the way down because you haven't been there. Last year I lead a rock pitch entirely on slung chockstones, then rapped off of two deadmanned rocks (short rope) during a ski traverse. Gear required? nothing but webbing. Life would have become quite a bit more difficult without those little non-gear dependent tricks.

 

Edited February 14, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

While we're on the subject; 2 people will also have great difficulty Z pulleying a 3rd out unless they are very strong and/or their system has a favorable setup (rope not buried in lip to badly, etc). A double Z pulley gives 2 pullers more advantage, but few parties carry that many pulleys. Adding a 3rd person to a party doesn't add as much security as one might think.

 

Get out there and try the stuff out.

[Bug]

I once lowered myself from a blade of grass using a vine I fashioned out of kinnikinik ryzomes and polevaulted over a gorge using askipole and springing off the rib cage of a dead moose.

[rob]

[tvashtarkatena]

I once lowered myself from a blade of grass using a vine I fashioned out of kinnikinik ryzomes and polevaulted over a gorge using askipole and springing off the rib cage of a dead moose.

 

You'd be surprised at the looks you get from a NOLS group when you pass them by dragging a dried carcass clipped to your harness.

 

 

[Bug]

You think I'm kidding don't you?

[tvashtarkatena]

You think I am?