rob Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Wait, I'm confused. What IS the sad fucking truth? Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Wait, I'm confused. What IS the sad fucking truth? we hold this truth to be self-evident Quote
jjd Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Wait, I'm confused. What IS the sad fucking truth? That Elvis is still dead. Quote
mattp Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 The sad fu$%ing truth is that we are not out climbing today, probably won't be tomorrow, and maybe not even next weekend! Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 The sad f#$@ing truth is that we are not out climbing today. no need to climb today - the weekend was awesome the sad fucking truth is not climbing this past w/e Quote
rob Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 no need to climb today - the weekend was awesome WTF are you talking about? There's ALWAYS a need to climb, weekend or not. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 no need to climb today - the weekend was awesome WTF are you talking about? There's ALWAYS a need to climb, weekend or not. not if you're old like me. you need to rest. Quote
mattp Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 And, meanwhile, we can continue to talk about talking about climbing. Even though frustrating, and some find it worse than that and actually worrisome, it is in my view more meaningful and interesting than some chain of consciousness spray thread where nothing of any relevance to climbing is involved. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Do ducks like pee? bug has a water-sports fetish Quote
billcoe Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 We're done with the important stuff now? I can go? OK, Cya Quote
Raindawg Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 I think it’s ridiculous that passionate subjects such as “ethics”, one of the most important, and sadly most neglected topics in climbing, almost automatically get tossed into “spray” because of its volatile nature. “Spray”: the same forum that includes Kevbone’s request for your “favorite morning music”, “photos of extra-large housecats” and “I’m tired and its Monday”. haven't seen a new argument, i see the same clownish posts (in fact, often including clown pictures). that isn't to say there is a new argument or needs to be. you and dwayner's position on the matter is quite clear, and it hardly needs more explaining. you could just refer to the volumes of posts that have been made where your opinion is stated over and over again…. First of all, YOU might have not seen a new argument, but you’re not the only guy reading this. I’ve met many people who have no idea that there is any sort of controversy about bolts, access, etc. until they were exposed to it on this site. I, for one, am intent on educating people on this issue whenever the opportunity arises. As I’ve stated in other places, I’m convinced that most new climbers have little if any environmental awareness of their practices (including permanent alterations to the rock, mountains, etc) with the exception…maybe…of picking up their garbage…but even that isn’t guaranteed. “Clip ‘n go! It’s all good!” If some long-time site users are tired of hearing about it, maybe they can just pass on by when they see the name “Raindawg” or “pope” associated with some sort of ethics topic. New readers of cc.com, however, might be exposed to such ideas for the first time. And guess what? There’s a whole lot of other “redundant” stuff going on in this site including loads of important and fascinating comments such as “ I think we should be talking about poo”….now that’s clownish. By the way, see anything clownish or clown pictures in our posts in this latest “discussion”? …and it must be frustrating to have your opinion drug through the dirt, time after time. the bolt (BLT) war discussion almost never fails to generate pages of animated discussion featuring pictures of clowns and sandwiches, and almost never ends on a respectful note….so if you truly want to have a conversation about your point of view, first you need to recognize and respect that others might not agree with it. you aren't going to win their hearts and minds be suggesting they are clowns, even if they are acting like them. We expect our opinions to be drug through the dirt because they are unpopular and uncomfortable and the implications are threatening to a lot of folk’s favorite hobby and sense of fun. Even without our satirical perspective - which clearly demonstrate our disdain for a lot of what goes on - we would receive little respect as has been shown many times, no matter how polite we might begin. It’s not necessarily only the messenger….it’s certainly the message at its core. (And some of our posts present the message in ways which we think make our point in a direct and amusing, if not darn funny, way….thus the sandwiches, clowns and the classic, “Via Feratta boy”). “MattP” has tried to lecture me on style….how the “in your face” approach doesn’t work...well he can choose his own style for whatever and I’ll choose mine. Does it work?..maybe not for everyone, but I’ve been told that I’ve changed the mind of quite a few, if not at least made them aware of the controversies. By the way, if “MattP” is correct about our approach, then he should be encouraging me ‘n pope to continue the way we do because we (MattP and us) apparently don’t agree on much and we’ll have little effect. There is the whole concern, too, that The Man might be reading this site and be made aware that there is no true consensus among the “climbing community”. Good. I hope he does. Maybe it will make some climbers consider how they treat public property and how their personal hobby might be perceived by outsiders. You want to talk about improving this site?? My suggestion: move the ethical arguments, including this one, to the new Ethics Forum, in which “minx” will not be allowed to moderate (she has long shown a disinterest, lack of understanding or just plain boredom with such subjects), and eliminate the pages and pages of one line irrelevant “banter”. Quote
jjd Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 I’ve met many people who have no idea that there is any sort of controversy about bolts, access, etc. Really, are they climbers? As I’ve stated in other places, I’m convinced that most new climbers have little if any environmental awareness of their practices Yes, please, let's re-hash the same tired argument over and over and over with the same principals... There’s a whole lot of other “redundant” stuff going on in this site including loads of important and fascinating comments such as “ I think we should be talking about poo”….now that’s clownish. How is talking about poo redundant? No two poos are the same. We expect our opinions to be drug through the dirt because they are unpopular and uncomfortable and the implications are threatening to a lot of folk’s favorite hobby and sense of fun. Don't take yourself so fucking seriously. Does it work?..maybe not for everyone, but I’ve been told that I’ve changed the mind of quite a few, if not at least made them aware of the controversies. Inflated sense of self importance. how their personal hobby might be perceived by outsiders. I don't care how they perceive it, I climb for me. and eliminate the pages and pages of one line irrelevant “banter”. There is more substance in the one line banter than in all of the drivel you're ever posted to this site. You don't need to write paragraph after paragraph to make a point. Stop taking yourself so seriously and try to enjoy life a little. Quote
olyclimber Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 its a good idea dawg. the only issue i see with it (and its an important one) is finding someone with the time, energy, and trust of you and everyone else to actually moderate such a forum. until i could address that, i'm not sure that the forum would be a good idea. Quote
mattp Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Dawg, I actually agree with some of the points you have made in this thread and even the post immediately above but why do you have to go out of your way to try to find an argument? You complain that I lecture you on your style but you have attacked me for mine dozens of times over the years here and you are complaining about my style or my message here. In this very thread I've commended you and your pal Pope for making some good points and stated that these are in fact important issues yet you include some taunting or complaining note about how I should be happy to see you ineffective because we disagree on everything? As to any particular route or bolt in place on a route, I bet you know very well that we agree far more than any of your taunting arguments here would suggest but you simply seem to want to keep it adversariall. And as to your last point about hoping that "the man" reads this stuff and discovers that there is a controversy between climbers? I don't get it and, furthermore, I think it rather arrogant that you would think that a controversy that by your own admission is one that most climbers don't even know is a controversy is a reason why climbing areas should be shut down. Why is it Dawg's way or the highway? Why are ethics discussions in spray? Because folks post taunting pictures and insults. You are no better than anybody else in this regard but I do agree the subject could be better supported here except that (see my post from two pages ago) I seriously question how many people actually want that. Quote
billcoe Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 ....that the history of climbing in Washington shows that bolt wars have more often threatened access than bolting practices themseslves. One climbing area is closed because a guy who disliked sport bolting tried to enlist land managers/owners on "his side" (the Omak Reservation), and similar efforts were attempted at three more other areas that I know of and in at least one case there was real danger that the area might have been closed as a result. There was five years ago some fear that bolting on one route that shall remain nameless might jeopardize access in a broader area but it was not the land managers who brought up the issue in the first place and they are happy NOT to be faced with any ongoing problem or need for enforcement. Their budgets are strapped and they have other more important things to spend money and staff resources on. ...... Thinking of Hueco Tanks, where rumor was that Skinner got under the skin of some local climbers who called in the rangers for help: whining, crying and complaining to them. Later- everyone got screwed due to this bullshit. And it is exactly that: bullshit. Climbers can be their own worst enemy. Don, you can make a bigger impact by being there and having these discussions mano-y-mano with these pups, teaching them out of love and helping them grow. I see Jimmy O do this all the time, and he has shaped Beacon Rock and it's strong traditional ethics via that method alone. He has no internet access and rejects the computer totally as a way to transmit these kinds of ideas. Spraying some of this crap on the internet is pointless and may in fact actually be counterproductive as people shut off their thinking caps in total rejection. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 A quote for the clueless: Access Issues Talk about issues involving crag development and maintenance, national forest and park access, wilderness and crag bolting, and fee demonstration. Quote
Bug Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 ....that the history of climbing in Washington shows that bolt wars have more often threatened access than bolting practices themseslves. One climbing area is closed because a guy who disliked sport bolting tried to enlist land managers/owners on "his side" (the Omak Reservation), and similar efforts were attempted at three more other areas that I know of and in at least one case there was real danger that the area might have been closed as a result. There was five years ago some fear that bolting on one route that shall remain nameless might jeopardize access in a broader area but it was not the land managers who brought up the issue in the first place and they are happy NOT to be faced with any ongoing problem or need for enforcement. Their budgets are strapped and they have other more important things to spend money and staff resources on. ...... Thinking of Hueco Tanks, where rumor was that Skinner got under the skin of some local climbers who called in the rangers for help: whining, crying and complaining to them. Later- everyone got screwed due to this bullshit. And it is exactly that: bullshit. Climbers can be their own worst enemy. Don, you can make a bigger impact by being there and having these discussions mano-y-mano with these pups, teaching them out of love and helping them grow. I see Jimmy O do this all the time, and he has shaped Beacon Rock and it's strong traditional ethics via that method alone. He has no internet access and rejects the computer totally as a way to transmit these kinds of ideas. Spraying some of this crap on the internet is pointless and may in fact actually be counterproductive as people shut off their thinking caps in total rejection. So you are apposed to leaving any vertical wilderness to future generations? Quote
RuMR Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 BOLT EVERY SQUARE METER ... LINK UP HEAVEN ON EARTH...YEAH MUTHAFUCKAS!!! Quote
Peter_Puget Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 Hey Rumr - Just something to think about. A friend of mine fell on one of the semi bold euro sport routes a couple weeks ago and a bolt broke....grounded out. Quote
RuMR Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 (edited) the thought crossed my mind over there...but then i said to myself "HA! This is Europe, the land of the Wuss...so sayeth Bug...Thou can'st get hurt here" and so i went for the proud send!!!! Acutally, the biggest fall i've seen or caught happened there...if'n that bolt broke it would've been very bad... Edited July 14, 2008 by RuMR Quote
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